1. Joined
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    27 Sep '09 00:34
    I've heard the question asked many times, 'where did God come from', or 'who created God'?

    The question assumes that God came from somewhere or had a beginning.

    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal being, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?
  2. Joined
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    27 Sep '09 00:591 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've heard the question asked many times, 'where did God come from', or 'who created God'?

    The question assumes that God came from somewhere or had a beginning.

    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal being, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?
    Most of the time I've heard such questions, it's been in the context of someone asserting that "The universe must have come from somewhere, so it God must be the creator."

    The problem is that if the universe "must have" come from somewhere, then under the same line of reasoning, God "must have" come from somewhere. If there is no "must have" for God, then there is no "must have" for the universe either.

    So most of the time it's in an attempt to point out these deficiencies which unfortunately somehow goes over the heads of most who contend that "The universe must have come from somewhere, so it God must be the creator."
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    27 Sep '09 01:04
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Most of the time I've heard such questions, it's been in the context of "The universe must have come from somewhere, so it God must be the creator."

    The problem is that if the universe "must have" come from somewhere, then under the same line of reasoning, God "must have" come from somewhere. If there is no "must have" for God, then there is no "must h ...[text shortened]... hat "The universe must have come from somewhere, so it God must be the creator."
    "If there is no "must have" for God, then there is no "must have" for the universe either. "

    Quite a leap here don't you think? Why must that be true, we know
    in this universe things begin and end, exactly why would that apply
    to God?
    Kelly
  4. Joined
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    27 Sep '09 01:082 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    "If there is no "must have" for God, then there is no "must have" for the universe either. "

    Quite a leap here don't you think? Why must that be true, we know
    in this universe things begin and end, exactly why would that apply
    to God?
    Kelly
    Not really.

    If someone can wrap their mind around the idea that God "just is", they can wrap their mind around the idea that the universe "just is". Excepting, of course, those steeped in delusion because of a deeply vested interest in protecting their belief system.

    Keep in mind the following question from the OP:
    "My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal being, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?"

    The answer is that it isn't. But then, neither is it difficult for the universe.
  5. Joined
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    27 Sep '09 01:22
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've heard the question asked many times, 'where did God come from', or 'who created God'?

    The question assumes that God came from somewhere or had a beginning.

    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal being, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?
    Probably because to have such qualities would put it outside of this universe's spatio-temporal nature (assuming this universe is finite and had a beginning) and as such it would be impossible for us to know anything about such a being.
  6. Donationrwingett
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    27 Sep '09 01:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've heard the question asked many times, 'where did God come from', or 'who created God'?

    The question assumes that God came from somewhere or had a beginning.

    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal being, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?
    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal universe, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?

    You see, two can play at that game.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    27 Sep '09 03:49
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Not really.

    If someone can wrap their mind around the idea that God "just is", they can wrap their mind around the idea that the universe "just is". Excepting, of course, those steeped in delusion because of a deeply vested interest in protecting their belief system.

    Keep in mind the following question from the OP:
    "My question is this. Why is the ...[text shortened]... and?"

    The answer is that it isn't. But then, neither is it difficult for the universe.
    I also believe many birds can fly that does not mean cows can, you are
    comparing apples and oranges, you are comparing the creator to the
    created, and saying one rule fits both and that isn't the case and there
    isn't any reason to even compare the two.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    27 Sep '09 03:50
    Originally posted by rwingett
    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal universe, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?

    You see, two can play at that game.
    I don't mind an eternal universe if you stop trying to date it.
    Kelly
  9. Standard membercaissad4
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    27 Sep '09 04:02
    Originally posted by rwingett
    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal universe, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?

    You see, two can play at that game.
    If, as the Goddists profess, there was a time that there was God and nothing else, then it may be that God and the Universe are one and the same. Does this mean that "God" is expanding and we are just a tiny part of God ?
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    27 Sep '09 04:14
    I think a more interesting question is where did the concepts of beginning or ending come from? Aren't they an artifact of our existence? Can you perceive anything outside of your current existence? Can you imagine even the span of your own lifetime? 2,049,840,000 seconds (give or take) - so many but so few. Can you perceive less than a second? At a certain atomic level time no longer has meaning. Can you imagine that? Hawking said that to ask what came before the universe is like asking how you can go further north when you are standing at the north pole. Time itself began with the universe. "Timeless" is beyond the classification of time - not time stretching limitless to an unbounded horizon from an unbounded past. Can you imagine that? Nothing is obvious except that there is room for a lot more thinking about time and the universe - but so little time.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    27 Sep '09 04:41
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    I think a more interesting question is where did the concepts of beginning or ending come from? Aren't they an artifact of our existence? Can you perceive anything outside of your current existence? Can you imagine even the span of your own lifetime? 2,049,840,000 seconds (give or take) - so many but so few. Can you perceive less than a second? At a cert ...[text shortened]... that there is room for a lot more thinking about time and the universe - but so little time.
    Well I've seen the birth and death of people I know, for me that is
    without a doubt a beginning and end. Those concepts are much easier
    to grasp than the eternal.
    Kelly
  12. Melbourne, Australia
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    27 Sep '09 07:18
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've heard the question asked many times, 'where did God come from', or 'who created God'?

    The question assumes that God came from somewhere or had a beginning.

    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal being, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?
    My counter question is - why is the idea of an eternal universe so difficult to understand?
  13. Joined
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    27 Sep '09 07:35
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Not really.

    If someone can wrap their mind around the idea that God "just is", they can wrap their mind around the idea that the universe "just is". Excepting, of course, those steeped in delusion because of a deeply vested interest in protecting their belief system.

    Keep in mind the following question from the OP:
    "My question is this. Why is the ...[text shortened]... and?"

    The answer is that it isn't. But then, neither is it difficult for the universe.
    "The answer is that it isn't. But then, neither is it difficult for the universe."

    We're talking about two different things here. God, and the universe. They are not synonymous.

    One is material, the other spiritual. Placing the value of eternal onto matter simultaneously with a living being is more difficult. imo
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    27 Sep '09 07:43
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Probably because to have such qualities would put it outside of this universe's spatio-temporal nature (assuming this universe is finite and had a beginning) and as such it would be impossible for us to know anything about such a being.
    Certainly beyond our finite ability to know everything about such a being, but not that one exists, or some qualities of one.
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    27 Sep '09 07:55
    Originally posted by rwingett
    My question is this. Why is the concept or idea of an eternal universe, without beginning or end, so difficult to understand?

    You see, two can play at that game.
    Basically because of the nature of the two. One being Spirit, the other material.

    When I think about it, you know, picture the idea in my head that the physical universe has existed forever, I lose sight of it somehow. Probably because the material is ever changing.
    On the other hand when I think of a being as eternal, I get the impression of something unchanging, in a steady state, something more in alignment with the idea of the infinite.
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