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    10 Oct '18 01:353 edits
    Luke 18 ESV

    9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    Many Christians seem to mistakenly believe that in the text in bold above, Jesus is saying that the tax collector is "justified" in the absolute sense rather than the relative sense. So they "beat [their] breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" -figuratively and/or literally - expecting to be "justified" in the absolute sense as well.

    Perversely this leads them to "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous" as well.
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    10 Oct '18 05:50
    @thinkofone said
    Luke 18 ESV

    9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like ...[text shortened]... as well.

    Perversely this leads them to "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous" as well.
    As well as justification through him, Jesus also claimed to offer eternal life.

    Was he correct?
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    10 Oct '18 05:52
    @divegeester said
    As well as justification through him, Jesus also claimed to offer eternal life.

    Was he correct?
    You bet that pint of ale He was, Bronwen!
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    10 Oct '18 14:24
    @divegeester said
    As well as justification through him, Jesus also claimed to offer eternal life.

    Was he correct?
    That brings up a good point. Many Christians seem to mistakenly believe that if one believes in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Christ one will receive eternal life, live in the Kingdom and be imputed righteousness.

    This leads them to "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous" as well.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    10 Oct '18 14:58
    @ThinkOfOne
    That brings up a good point. Many Christians seem to mistakenly believe that if one believes in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Christ one will receive eternal life, live in the Kingdom and be imputed righteousness.

    This leads them to "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous" as well.


    How is that? Explain this a bit more.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    10 Oct '18 15:062 edits
    Many Christians seem to mistakenly believe that if one believes in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Christ one will receive eternal life, live in the Kingdom and be imputed righteousness.


    Reading your words carefully, I would have to say that some who believe the doctrine is correct may nevertheless never receive Christ.

    Just agreeing with the teaching does not mean they will be justified.
    The justification is being IN CHRIST. Which is something only God can do.
    He is willing to do this. But you may not be willing that He does.

    But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

    That as it is written, He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1;30)


    Suppose you doctrinally agree with Christ's salvation but postpone, procrastinate or simply never receive Christ into your heart ?

    Mental agreement may not put you IN Christ Jesus if you are umwilling to be transferred.
    God will if you invite Him to.
    Of God, of Him we are in Christ Jesus.

    You better make sure you ask God to put you IN Christ Jesus.
    That's hard if you do not believe Christ Jesus is alive and available to be put into in the first place.
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    10 Oct '18 15:204 edits
    @sonship said
    @ThinkOfOne
    That brings up a good point. Many Christians seem to mistakenly believe that if one believes in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Christ one will receive eternal life, live in the Kingdom and be imputed righteousness.

    This leads them to "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous" as well.


    How is that? Explain this a bit more.
    Like the Pharisee they "[pray] thus]": "God, I thank you that I am not like other men who do not believe in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Christ". They "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous".

    Both the Pharisee and those Christians judge themselves righteous even when they are not in fact righteous as judged by the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry. Jesus said, "“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." Those who truly keep His commandments and truly abide in His word are the truly righteous.
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    10 Oct '18 15:37
    @thinkofone said
    That brings up a good point. Many Christians seem to mistakenly believe that if one believes in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Christ one will receive eternal life, live in the Kingdom and be imputed righteousness.

    This leads them to "[trust] in themselves that they [are] righteous" as well.
    My question may well "bring up a good point" in your mind but basically it is just you dodging the question.


    As well as justification through him, Jesus also claimed to offer eternal life.
    Was he correct?
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    10 Oct '18 15:491 edit
    @divegeester said
    My question may well "bring up a good point" in your mind but basically it is just you dodging the question.


    As well as justification through him, Jesus also claimed to offer eternal life.
    Was he correct?
    Actually it is me choosing to not address your red herring.

    Since you still don't seem to understand the concept, you should take the time to understand this:
    https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring

    Educate yourself.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    10 Oct '18 16:381 edit

    Both the Pharisee and those Christians judge themselves righteous even when they are not in fact righteous as judged by the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry. Jesus said, "“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." Those who truly keep His commandments and truly abide in His word are the truly righteous.


    You are blurring the distinction between justification and sanctification.
    You are blurring the distinction between positional righteousness and dispositional righteous living.

    Worst than blurring the distinction you are actually attacking both in favor of Humanism which does not require the existence of God at all.

    Judicially the believer is reconciled to God by the death of Christ on his behalf.
    Having BEEN thus reconciled there is the much more salvation of transformation, sanctification, conformation in which his living become more and more conformed to Christ's living.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    10 Oct '18 16:392 edits
    In the basic book of Christian doctrine Romans, the dividing line between Paul's explanation of these two aspects of God's full salvation is pretty much drawn at Romans 5:9,10. He goes from a believer's positional standing of being justified in Christ to his subjective dispositional sanctification in which his living becomes more and more an expression of Christ's living.

    "Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath. (v.9)

    For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (v.10)


    Positionally, the former enemy is SAVED from the wrath of God through the blood of Christ's redemption.

    Having been thus reconciled from his position of eternal enmity against God, there awaits for him the salvation in the realm of Christ's indwelling and sanctifying life - "much more we will be saved in His life."

    Are you saved from the wrath of God through the blood of Christ?

    Yes you are?
    No you are not?
    You don't know?
    You don't believe it is necessary or possible?

    Which?
  12. Standard membersonship
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    10 Oct '18 16:403 edits
    ToO,

    If you are not saved through the redeeming blood of Christ from the coming wrath, there is no use in asking if you are participating in the subjective salvation " in His life " of sanctification. If your former answer amounts to a negative - ie. the blood of Christ has done nothing for you, then probably you don't care to be saved in the realm and sphere of His resurrection life imparted into you as the Holy Spirit.

    You are headed for the wrath of God.
    Get out from there and ask Christ to immediately place you in Himself.

    "Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath. (v.9)

    For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (v.10) (Rom. 5:9,10)
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    10 Oct '18 21:00
    @thinkofone said
    Actually it is me choosing to not address your red herring.

    Since you still don't seem to understand the concept, you should take the time to understand this:
    https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red-Herring

    Educate yourself.
    So my checkmate questions which you repeatedly ignore, are “red herrings” are they.

    They are just questions about the words of Jesus ToO, I thought you loved the words of Jesus...?
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '18 21:531 edit
    @divegeester said
    So my checkmate questions which you repeatedly ignore, are “red herrings” are they.

    They are just questions about the words of Jesus ToO, I thought you loved the words of Jesus...?
    checkmate questions?

    lol... your questions are shallow and 'off the cuff' .
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    11 Oct '18 00:38
    @karoly-aczel said
    checkmate questions?

    lol... your questions are shallow and 'off the cuff' .
    I’ve been asking ToO a set of very specific very simple questions about “the words of Jesus”, the “gospel of Jesus” for over a year now. He refuses to answer, not because he doesn’t know the answer but because he cannot answer.

    He cannot answer because they are checkmate questions in that if he answers in the negative (no) it reveals his pretence in this forum, if he answers in the affirmative (yes) he is lying.

    One of the questions is in the thread a few posts up, you can see him dodging it.
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