The problem with atheism

LOL, "orgasmic sneezing". Fantastic euphemism.

Tissue, please!

Originally posted by googlefudge
I heard this story on a show I occasionally watch... I might get a few details wrong
but the details relevant to my point are correct.

There was/is a great debate/argument over whether people really envision things in
their mind as things they actually see.

So when people talk about seeing something in their minds eye, their imagination, are
...[text shortened]... d failing to understand those that view
it differently. or even THAT they view it differently.

Point taken. My language was a little clumsy, and also my use of the word 'spiritual' has obviously very differing connotations for different people. Dawkins might not be able to have a 'spiritual experience' by using the God Helmet as some people are able to. But I've seen interviews with him where he states he can be awe struck by the wonder and nature and the universe. I'll include that under my umbrella of 'spiritual'.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its disrespectful, a man in my position cannot be seen to be weak, Capiche?

I see you avoided my direct question above.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Point taken. My language was a little clumsy, and also my use of the word 'spiritual' has obviously very differing connotations for different people. Dawkins might not be able to have a 'spiritual experience' by using the God Helmet as some people are able to. But I've seen interviews with him where he states he can be awe struck by the wonder and nature and the universe. I'll include that under my umbrella of 'spiritual'.

Oh, yeah. 'Spiritual' and 'Spirituality' are so loosely and whoolily* defined that I
can't say definitively I have never had a spiritual experience.


I mean I can happily stand in the cold at the top of a nearby hill looking out
at a beautiful sunset, enjoying and just experiencing the view.
And I can stay up watching meteorites and looking at the stars [and complaining
about the light pollution].
But I don't get a feeling of awe or wonder. They are just pretty, and interesting.
They provide a great backdrop and inspiration for my imagination.
I just don't get awestruck by them.

Not the way other people describe it.

Whether I experience anything that others would describe as a 'spiritual' experience,
is very hard to say. I don't know what their 'spiritual' experience feels like to them.
I was just saying that when I hear people describe 'spiritual' experiences the descriptions
don't match my own experiences.

*I don't care if the dictionary doesn't like it, I like it.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
I'll await your postscript before repeating GF's reply...

Question: "Why does God allow natural disasters, i.e. earthquakes, hurricanes, and tsunamis?"

"Answer: Why does God allow earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, tsunamis, typhoons, cyclones, mudslides, wildfires, and other natural disasters? Tragedies cause many people to question God’s goodness. It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed “acts of God” while no “credit” is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather. God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.

The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God sometimes influence the weather? Yes, as we see in Deuteronomy 11:17 and James 5:17. Numbers 16:30-34 shows us that God sometimes causes natural disasters as a judgment against sin. The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16). Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.

In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation. Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the world we inhabit. Everything in creation is subject to “frustration” and “decay.” Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.

We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of thousands of people? For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies." (Romans 8:28). http://www.gotquestions.org/natural-disasters.html

Note: The correct attitude (of maturing believers in Christ) in any personal or national disaster is described by Peter: "These [momentum tests of all kinds] have come so that your faith [the application of Bible doctrine] of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire, may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed at the Rapture of the Church. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and even though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy." 1 Peter 1: 7-8 (NIV)

If God's Omniscience and Omnipotence can allow natural disasters as a divine judgment against degenerate nations, how much more so will His Justice be in evidence at the Great White Throne Judgment of all who have rejected His Grace Gift.

So in summary, natural disasters are to scare people into going to Church?

No, if I understand correctly the summary is:

"Perhaps first ask Empiricism or Science; Rationalism or Philosophy; Humanism or Fortune Tellers or The Weather Fairy."

Obviously.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
No, if I understand correctly the summary is:

"Perhaps first ask Empiricism or Science; Rationalism or Philosophy; Humanism or Fortune Tellers or The Weather Fairy."

Obviously.

There's no comfort in evasion... now or ever.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So in summary, natural disasters are to scare people into going to Church?

Your mind's better than that....

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
There's no comfort in evasion... now or ever.

Two questions:

1) Does god "cause" disasters to happen, does he "allow" them to happen or does he do both? There's a huge difference between these two.

2) I'm still confused as to why Googlefudge was not killed in a tornado - in fact saved from one - and 100s if not 1000s of Philippine children were. Mind you, I don't want Googlefudge to have that happen to him, but the same goes for the Philippines.

Why did god save GF but not the Philippines?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Your mind's better than that....

That was my interpretation of your post. If I got it wrong, feel free to correct me, but try to do it in understandable english instead of your usual fare.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Oh, yeah. 'Spiritual' and 'Spirituality' are so loosely and whoolily* defined that I
can't say definitively I have never had a spiritual experience.


I mean I can happily stand in the cold at the top of a nearby hill looking out
at a beautiful sunset, enjoying and just experiencing the view.
And I can stay up watching meteorites and looking at t ...[text shortened]...
don't match my own experiences.

*I don't care if the dictionary doesn't like it, I like it.

"so loosely and whoolily*

*I don't care if the dictionary doesn't like it, I like it."

Me, too.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Two questions:

1) Does god "cause" disasters to happen, does he "allow" them to happen or does he do both? There's a huge difference between these two.

2) I'm still confused as to why Googlefudge was not killed in a tornado - in fact saved from one - and 100s if not 1000s of Philippine children were. Mind you, I don't want Googlefudge to have th ...[text shortened]... to him, but the same goes for the Philippines.

Why did god save GF but not the Philippines?

1) "We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur."

2) God still has a potential plan to provide meaning, purpose and definition to googlefudge's life as well as yours.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So in summary, natural disasters are to scare people into going to Church?

"So in summary, natural disasters are to scare people into going to Church?" -twhitehead

Several reasons are given. One: "Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life." Some may be motivated to seek information regarding spiritual life by faith alone in Christ alone (in a church, MP3CDs, etc.).

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Oh, but wait, quite a few people (1836) lost their lives in 1953 when a storm hit us.

That storm is remembered in UK as taking 50 lives in Canvey Island.
I had no idea so many were lost in Holland.
Shame on me. 😞