The Proper Unity of the church

Originally posted by pyxelated
[b]The book of Romans lays out the basic tenets of the Christian faith.
How much space does Paul use on teaching about "the mother of God"?

None.


True. But the fact that Mary is the Mother of God is a deduction from the fact that Jesus is God and that He was born of Mary. Is no doctrine that doesn't appear word-for-word in the Bo ...[text shortened]... is the Catholic Church.[/b]

Pyx,

You say Mary is not worshipped by Catholics. Then I suppose you would not describe this as worship of Mary ?

copied without permission from an article on Pontiff Puts World in Mary's Hands http://www.zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary's hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

The Pope's leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

"We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart," the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

In a gesture of filial love, the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose.

The Holy Father traveled by helicopter this morning to Pompeii, and was welcomed by 50,000 faithful. This is the third time a Pope has visited the shrine.

Pompeii was destroyed by the lava and ashes from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 A.D.

The new Pompeii arose 1,796 years later, when, in 1872, Bartolo Longo, a lawyer and lay Dominican, built a church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary. "

Originally posted by jaywill
Pyx,

You say Mary is not worshipped by Catholics. Then I suppose you would not describe this as worship of Mary ?

copied without permission from an article on [b]Pontiff Puts World in Mary's Hands http://www.zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary's hands d ...[text shortened]... o, a lawyer and lay Dominican, built a church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary. "[/b]

No, it's asking for her help. Remember Cana? All she has to do is drop a word in Jesus' ear. She is his mother, after all, and as we are His brothers by adoption, she's our mother too. And if your mother won't help you, you're in a pretty bad way.

Now if they had sacrificed a hekatomb or the odd child or so, or poured out some libations, you might have a case....

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
They never left it. Just ask the Bishops and Archbishops of Rome, Milan, Denver, New York, Melbourne, Toronto, Chicago, Atlanta, Knoxville, Raleigh, Lincoln....
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[/b]
My time is very limited until this evening and I am writing from the public library.

The con ible and the most blessed way for Christians to proceed in God's economy.[/b]

The congregation in Milan is that of the Roman church in Milan. The assembly in Denver is of the Church in Rome in Denver. And the gathering in New York is of Rome's Church in New York.

No. This is false. In fact, New York is home to a number of Catholic church. There is obviously the Latin-rite church under the leadership of Archbishop Dolan. There is however also the Ukranian, Melkite, Chaldeon and Maronite eparchies, each respectively headed by their own bishop. Each is its own church, with its own bishop and own cathedral. Now each is Roman Catholic in the sense that they have communion with the see of Rome but they are not branches of Rome. Each is a church in its own way.

A Ukranian Catholic would not refer to himself as Roman Catholic, nor would a Ukranian church be identified as Roman Catholic. They are Roman Catholic only in the sense of communion with Rome but are in many ways independent of Rome, having a separate canon law, their own rite and their own patriarch.

This is not what we see in the New Testament. We do not see the Jerusalem Church in Antioch or the Jerusalem Church in Philippi or the Jerusalem Church in Thessalonika.

I will have to do some further study on this, but I think we do see that. In the early church, new Christian communities were under the responsibility of older churches. They were early suffragan churches.

Originally posted by pyxelated
Well, actually the Catholic Church does claim to be the (Mystical) Body of Christ... a small (but important) point.

But you are right that salvation is possible for those who are not formally members of the Catholic Church, although even they are saved through the Church. How likely this is, I have no idea... but objectively speakin ...[text shortened]... ecessary for salvation. This is covered here: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

Well, actually the Catholic Church does claim to be the (Mystical) Body of Christ... a small (but important) point.

Yes of course it does. The Church is the body of Christ, as the catechism itself states. The Church however is much more than the RCC, the visible institution on earth. The Church consists of all the souls in purgatory (ecclesia penitens), all those in heaven (ecclesia triumphans) and those on earth (ecclesia militans). All these are the body of Christ, the Church in communion with Christ. But this is something distinct (though not separate) from the Roman Catholic Church.

To use the terminology of Vatican II, we might say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Roman Catholic Church. This means that in susbtance, the Church of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are the same. This also allows that elements of Christ's church may exist elsewhere (in other Christian communions). The point I am making is that there is a difference between the RCC and the body of Christ.

But you are right that salvation is possible for those who are not formally members of the Catholic Church, although even they are saved through the Church. How likely this is, I have no idea... but objectively speaking, the Church is necessary for salvation. This is covered here: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

Yes, I was making that very point. Those who are not baptised into the Catholic Church may still share invisibly in the life of the Church. They are members known only to God.

Originally posted by pyxelated
Now if they had sacrificed a hekatomb or the odd child or so, or poured out some libations, you might have a case....

Or if they offered up the Eucharist (itself a sacrifice).

Originally posted by Conrau K
Or if they offered up the Eucharist (itself a sacrifice).

Really deep hypotheticals pop up in the strangest places.....

Originally posted by pyxelated
No, it's asking for her help. Remember Cana? All she has to do is drop a word in Jesus' ear. She is his mother, after all, and as we are His brothers by adoption, she's our mother too. And if your mother won't help you, you're in a pretty bad way.

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No, it's asking for her help.
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You can not ask sister Mary for help. You cannot ask any disciple who has gone to sleep in Christ, for help.

Even if the disciple was one of the brothers or sisters of Jesus you could not ask their help now. Even if it was His mother or Joseph, you cannot petition their help.

This requesting help from one deceased is like the ancestor worship of many cultures. It is deceptive because you could actually be contacting demons who deceive.

Besides it being impossible to petition the Christian sister Mary the mother of Jesus, you ought not to try. The word of God tells us:

" .... let your request be made known to God" (Phil. 4:6)

Let's examine the whole passage.

"In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God; And the peace of God, which surpasses every [man's] understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus." (Phil. 4:6,7)

Not only should Christians make their requests, prayers, and petitions made known to God rather than Mary, the peace of God comes to guard our hearts and thoughts to remain in Christ Jesus.

The proper prayer will mount a guard over our hearts to keep us from being destracted from Christ Jesus. Worship or prayer to Mary is a tool of the Devil to distract man from Christ Jesus. Yes, apparently she was very close to Christ Jesus. But this is exactly the deception of the subtle enemy of God. That is the Devil would take something or someone very close to Christ Jesus in order to sidetrack and distract the believes from focusing on Christ Jesus.

The peace of God patrols before the hearts of the praying one to keep that heart fixed on Christ Jesus in a calm and tranquil state.

I would advize you to make your requests and petitions made known to God.

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Remember Cana? All she has to do is drop a word in Jesus' ear. She is his mother, after all, and as we are His brothers by adoption, she's our mother too. And if your mother won't help you, you're in a pretty bad way.
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Mary needed her sins washed in the blood of Christ just like all the rest of us sinners. Mary stands before God clothed in the redemption of Christ as her ONLY justification unto eternal life, just like every other sinner.

She found grace with God to bring into the world the Savior (Luke 1:30)
But Noah also found grace with God (Genesis 6:8). We do not pray and petition Noah or Mary. We should make our petition to God.

Praying to Jesus Christ is praying to God. For Paul besought the Lord three times for the removal of the "thorn" in his flesh, whatever that was:

"Concerning this [thorn in the flesh] I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." ( 2 Cor. 12:8,9a)

Paul besought the Lord Jesus. This was his praying to the Son of God. This was his making petition to God the Son. And this was Paul's asking of the Son of God according to the teaching of the Son of God:

"Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you shall receive, that your joy may be made full." (John 16:24)

In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father concerning you, For the Father Himself loves you, because you have love Me and have believed that I came forth from God." (16:26,27)

We only need to receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. We only need to abide in Christ the Son. Then we ask in His Person, in His name - we make our petition to God in the sphere and realm of Christ. Even we pray to the Lord as Paul and Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus (2 Cor. 12:8,9; Acts 7:59,60)

Now when a person receives Christ through faith, that person is not adopted but BORN in an organic union with the Father. This coming into the divine family is much more than a matter of what we would typically regard as adoption. It is a spiritual birth - a regeneration.

www.regenerated.net

And the English word in the King James Bible in Ephesians 1:5 as "adoption" is a poor translation. It is better translated as in the Recovery Version as "sonship" .

"Predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will."

The word indicates more than an official or legal adoption. It indicates "the place of a son" - sonship is a matter of receiving the same life of God. That communicable divine life and nature of God is implanted into the forgiven sinner bringing that person into an "organic" life relationship.

So the Apostle Peter says that the believers have become "partakers of the divine nature" (1 Peter 1:4):

"Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue,

Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

The believer in Jesus is not merely a SPECTATOR of the divine nature.
The Christian is not merely an OBSERVOR or WORSHIPPER of that divine nature.

That divine nature of the Father is now imparted INTO the believer. This is beyond a mere adoption. This is a BIRTH of God's life within man making man a PARTICIPANT in the divine nature.

Furthermore, this birth, this regeneration unto a living hope, brings the Spirit of the Son of God into man's heart to cry "Abba Father" This is a most intimate crying to God our Papa or God our Daddy.

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father! So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God." (Gal. 4:6,7)

The Spirit of the Son is not calling out to His eartly mother. The Holy Spirit is not prompting us to cry out "Mary, Mary, O my Mother". The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Son of God urges us to cry "Abba Father" to our Father God.

Here again "But you have not received a spirit of slavery [bringing you] into fear again, but you have received a spirit of SONSHIP in which we cry, Abba, Father!

The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:15,16)

The Bible never taught us to make our request known to the virgin Mary, but to God. And we should receive Christ into our innermost being through faith that we may call God our own dear Abba Father directly.

Originally posted by jaywill

You can not ask sister Mary for help. You cannot ask any disciple who has gone to sleep in Christ, for help.
Who says I can't? And don't tell me "the Bible." You are saying that, based on your interpretation of certain passages. I'm not saying those interpretations are original with you, but in this forum you are asserting them, and without further support their truth depends on the word of a man--you. Don't get me wrong; I have no particular reason to distrust you, but then again in this matter (and in all the others we're discussing) you've given me no reason to take your word over the Catholic Church's when the two of you differ over the meaning of a passage, or which doctrines the Bible supports and which it condemns. You complain about the Church's rules being "man's rules;" well, how are yours any different? Books, even inspired ones, don't interpret themselves. Nowhere does the Bible say that it is the sole rule of faith; Fr. Harrison makes what seems to me a pretty airtight case for that in the article I linked to earlier. Different people interpret (more or less) the same Scripture in different ways. Our Lord did not leave us with what amounts to a set of stereo instructions; see his parting words at the end of Matthew. Where are the disciples told to sit down and write books? They aren't.

There is ample Biblical support for praying to saints, and a good deal in the Bible in support of the Church's doctrines about the Blessed Virgin. True, not everything is spelled out as clearly there as one might like, but again, the Bible isn't stereo instructions, and it isn't always clear--that's why we need a trustworthy interpreter. (I could cite Acts 8:30-31, for example, in support of this 🙂 )

This is part of the larger problem we set out to discuss in this thread, which is rapidly going off in several different directions. If you want to start a separate thread on Our Lady, we can pick up this discussion there (at some point... there's only so much time in the day, and much else to do 🙂 ). But here let's stick to the point.

Really, everything comes back to authority, even church organization. Where is the authority in the Church? Who has the power to interpret the Scriptures for the universal Church? Who can settle doctrinal disputes? If one "church" says that, for example, baptism is necessary for salvation and one says that it isn't, one of them is wrong. Who decides? Is that the kind of question Jesus would have just left hanging? Would Jesus have left His Church without some way of deciding crucial questions? I don't think so. It just doesn't make sense.

We can quote the Bible at each other and give our interpretations endlessly in here... and it's basically your word against mine. But where is your authority? Mine has been around for two thousand years. (And if I'm wrong it can correct me. Not only that, so can you--you can show me where the Church and I disagree.) Authority has to come from God--but it comes, necessarily, through man, in one way or another. The question is, which form is the right one?



Even if the disciple was one of the brothers or sisters of Jesus you could not ask their help now. Even if it was His mother or Joseph, you cannot petition their help.
Jesus was an only child. (Here we go again... 🙂 ) The Jews referred to cousins and such as "brothers;" the "brothers of the Lord" were His cousins. There. Not going to argue about that any more, at least not now. 🙂

This requesting help from one deceased is like the ancestor worship of many cultures. It is deceptive because you could actually be contacting demons who deceive.

Yes, it is like ancestor worship in some ways. And in other ways it is different. That's all beside the point. Prayer to saints in heaven is one of the few ways you can contact the "other world" that ISN'T susceptible to demonic deception.

Okay, you've asserted and I've counter-asserted. How much have we advanced? 🙂

" .... let your request be made known to God" (Phil. 4:6)

Let's examine the whole passage.

... snip ...

I would advize you to make your requests and petitions made known to God.

Thanks, I'll take that advice. If I choose to make them known through a well-connected and influential mutual friend--she who crushes the head of the serpent--I hope you'll understand 🙂

I think we can defer the discussion on Mary to another thread. (Unless you'd rather carry on with that now?)

And I'm sorry I can't respond faster. Quick one-liners are one thing, but sustained replies don't just roll off my fingers like they seem to do from yours. I'm a slow writer AND a slow chessplayer. I have to ruminate 🙂

Originally posted by pyxelated
Originally posted by jaywill

[b]You can not ask sister Mary for help. You cannot ask any disciple who has gone to sleep in Christ, for help.
Who says I can't? And don't tell me "the Bible." You are saying that, based on your interpretation of certain passages. I'm not saying those interpretations are original with you, but in t ...[text shortened]... er AND a slow chessplayer. I have to ruminate 🙂[/b]

You do not care what the Bible says. You only care what the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church says.

This is is typical. But as you wrote before, the RCC will indeed be on the earth until the end of the age. That is true.

But in the great tribulation the Antichrist will destroy her to the ground and those captured in her will flee as coming out of Babylon.

Originally posted by jaywill
You do not care what the Bible says. You only care what the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church says.

This is is typical. But as you wrote before, the RCC will indeed be on the earth until the end of the age. That is true.

But in the great tribulation the Antichrist will destroy her to the ground and those captured in her will flee as coming out of Babylon.

What about Orthodox Christianity? Orthodox Christians, with just as much history as Roman Catholics, share the same beliefs about Mary.

Originally posted by jaywill
You do not care what the Bible says. You only care what the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church says.

This is is typical. But as you wrote before, the RCC will indeed be on the earth until the end of the age. That is true.

But in the great tribulation the Antichrist will destroy her to the ground and those captured in her will flee as coming out of Babylon.

Sorry, I ABSOLUTELY DO care what the Bible says. I just couldn't understand it as a Protestant (growing up) or a Buddhist-Taoist-atheist-agnostic-materialist-what-have-you-modernist-nearly-Orthodox-Jew before my conversion to the Catholic Church.

The Bible cannot be correctly understood outside its proper context. I was like the Ethiopian, perplexed by what I read, only I was reading the Gospel and coming across the incomprehensible sayings of Jesus--until I learned that there was a Christian Church, surprise, surprise, the first one, that really could open the Scriptures to me, and where reason wasn't rejected or ignored when inconvenient, but recognized for the very useful tool it is and put in its proper place serving God alongside and complementing faith, instead of pitted against her.

And yes, the Church will remain until the end of the age, and the Lord will be with her, just as He promised. I hope I will too, way beyond the end of my age.

Originally posted by Conrau K
What about Orthodox Christianity? Orthodox Christians, with just as much history as Roman Catholics, share the same beliefs about Mary.

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What about Orthodox Christianity? Orthodox Christians, with just as much history as Roman Catholics, share the same beliefs about Mary.
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You are quite correct.

You see in Revelation, the Woman riding the Beast is called the Mother of harlots. This means that she has many daughters.

The Protestant denominations are the many daughters. The Mother of harlots is the Roman Catholic Church.

Now I know this will be offensive sounding. But there are Catholic scholars who would agree.

"And on her forehead there was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Rev. 17:5)


I am not attempting a full fledged interpretation of Revelation 17 in this single little Internet post. I only want to show that the phrase "MOTHER OF HARLOTS" strongly implies that spawned off from the Mother were many daughters more or less carrying with them some of her abominations, sins, and errors.

God's call is "Come out of her My people" (18:4) . So we know that God's people are indeed there. They are trapped there as the captive Jews were carried away from the good land of Israel into Babylon in the Old Testament.

Originally posted by pyxelated
Now if they had sacrificed a hekatomb or the odd child or so, or poured out some libations, you might have a case....

Eureka!

Originally posted by pyxelated
Originally posted by jaywill

[b]You can not ask sister Mary for help. You cannot ask any disciple who has gone to sleep in Christ, for help.
Who says I can't? And don't tell me "the Bible." You are saying that, based on your interpretation of certain passages. I'm not saying those interpretations are original with you, but in t ...[text shortened]... er AND a slow chessplayer. I have to ruminate 🙂[/b]

There is ONE mediator between God and humankind....care to guess who that is?