The Proper Unity of the church

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]====================================
Look, I will research this further at another time. I am not at all convinced by your claim that the city was the 'boundary of unity'.
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There is no hurry. You sound serious about researching the matter.
Then don't worry about rushing for the sake of some Inte ...[text shortened]... urch.

I am on a roll. But I have to stop for some duties. We WILL continue.[/b]

I have read Watchman Nee enjoyed it completely.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I have read Watchman Nee enjoyed it completely.
Kelly

What did you read ?

Have you read anything by Witness Lee ?

http://www.witness-lee-books.org/

Originally posted by pyxelated
Hey jaywill, I haven't forgotten this thread. I just switched which of your posts I was replying to midstream, and coming up with a good comprehensive answer is taking a while.

Since it appears from the website that your church takes a somewhat unusual approach to the Bible and church organization, I want to take a little time to understand where you're coming from before responding.

--pyx

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Since it appears from the website that your church takes a somewhat unusual approach to the Bible and church organization, I want to take a little time to understand where you're coming from before responding.
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This matter of the oneness and the unity of the Christians is a deeper matter than organization. The organization really is only the outward scaffolding.

The Lord is recovering the local ground of the church. But it would be superfiscial to assume that Christian oneness is solely dependent upon "one city - one church".

For example our oneness with one another is dependent upon departing from sin that God may receive of. Being received by God is a basis for our oneness with one another. This passage demonstrates that:

"Do not become dissimilarly yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership dp roghteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? And what concord does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, even as God said, I will dwell among them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Therefore Come our from their midst and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch what is unleacn; and I will welcome you; And I will be a Father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Almighty." (2 Cor. 6:14-18)

The people of God must withdraw from sinning, idolatry, lawlessness and unrighteousness in order to be received by God. His presence among them brings them also into oneness with one another.

We should not be so foolish to think Christian unity is only dependent upon Christians being more forebearing and more patient is their basis for oneness. Sin is a dividing factor. Chistians are divided by divisions in founding "churches". But they are also divided by the problem of sin. The Bible shows here that the forsaking of sins is the basis of Christian oneness.

If we would have fellowship with God we must walk in God's light. When we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another. We may say that fellowship is the basis of our oneness, but dealing with sin and our removal of sin is a basis of fellowship vertically and horizontally.

So God says to come out from among idolators. But the RCC has brought thousands of idols into her "church". And other deniminations have done the same. How can we expect to have genuine oneness where believers and unbelievers are yoked togther or idolatry is tolerated ?

" ... Come our from their midst and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch what is unlcean; and I will welcome you."

If we are welcomed into fellowship with God vertically we will be united horizontally with other believers. We cannot be genuinely united merely on the basis of being more tolerant, more patient, more accomodating toward that which is unclean and displeasing to the Lord.

Second Corinthians 6 reveals that when the Christians separate themselves from the unrighteous and the unclean God becomes the welcoming Father and they his children in practicality. God's fellowship with them is based on their separation from sin. If we try to keep natural ties at the expense of God's fellowship, the presence of sinning may cause us to lose real oneness.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The prayers of the saints are just that, what the saints prayed. Come on,
give me a scripture that supports prayer to anyone other than God!
Kelly

I just did. How did the ancients get vials full of prayers? They got them from the saints who prayed to them, asking them to pass their requests on to God... which the verse I quoted describes. At least, that's the Church's interpretation, and it seems pretty commonsensical and not at all farfetched to me; in fact, it seems to me like the literal sense of the passage (insofar as a vision can have a literal sense, but St. John does explain the symbolism here.)

You're perfectly free to reject whatever you want; however, the truth doesn't rely on your acceptance of it, and if it's your word (or Scofield's or Darby's or whoever's) against that of the teaching authority of the Church, well... you know where I'm going to end up 🙂

--pyx

Originally posted by pyxelated
How about Rev. 5:8?

"And when he [the Lamb] had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, [b]and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:"

Are the creatures (which have traditionally been interpreted to represent the four evangelists ...[text shortened]... Lamb--who is God? Looks a lot like intercession to me. And these people are already in Heaven.[/b]

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How about Rev. 5:8?

"And when he [the Lamb] had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:"

Are the creatures (which have traditionally been interpreted to represent the four evangelists) and the ancients not offering these prayers to the Lamb--who is God? Looks a lot like intercession to me. And these people are already in Heaven.
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I think that Kelly's request was evidence of prayers TO someone else besides God. Don't you think that a more convincing sample would come from elsewhere besides the highly symbolic book of Revelation ?

Be that as it may, let me consider your sample of Revelation 5:8 .

"And when He [the Lamb] took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell before the Lamb; each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which [bowls] are the prayers of the saints." [Recovery Version].

I love the book of Revelation so lets have some fun. I know you'll probably stick to your opinion.

1.) The word [bowls] is supplied by the translators of the RcV. With this view the "prayers of the saints" are the bowls from which the fragrant incense ascends.

Compare to a parallel passage in chapter 8 verse 5 - "And the smoke of the incense went up WITH THE PRAYERS of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God."

The incense goes up with the prayers and makes them sweet smelling to God. God wants CHRIST His Son.

The pleasing incense should signify Christ. For it is the fragrance of Christ which is pleasing to God. We can pray natural and raw prayers which are not that pleasing to God. He may even grant us an answer. But what are the prayers to God which are a sweet smelling incense ? They are the prayers which convey the Christ wrought into the personality of the praying one.

So first off, I would suggest that we understand the incense to be the fragrance of Jesus Christ and the bowls would be the prayers of the saints.


2.) Where are the prayers GOING? They are not going to anyone but to God. The four living creatures, whatever or whoever they may symbolize, are not the recpients of the prayers or the answerers of the prayers. Whether you understand the bowls as the prayers or the incense smoke as the prayers, these prayers are not to the four living creatures. At best they are conveying the prayers.

There are problems in interpreting the four living creatures as the evanglists. For John is one of the evangelists and he is a witness to the scene. You end up with John being both a living creature and a witness to what they are doing.

It is acceptable that the four living creatures underscore the four aspects of the four gospels - Matthew portraying Christ as a King (lion face)
Mark portraying Christ as a slave (ox face)
Luke portraying Christ as the pristine human man (man's face)
John portraying Christ as the transcendent God (eagle face).

I prefer that four aspects of the Gospel are scene in the four living creatures rather then they being the gospel writers themselves personally.

Regardless of this interpretation, can you provide plain teaching that any of the four evangelists would be intercessors to God in the sense as mediators ? I don't think Matthew, Mark, Luke or John could be intercessors in any greater sense than any other disciple can offer petitions in prayers to God. They were not mediators.

Actually, I think the ones offering the prayers are the twenty four elders. " ... and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, EACH having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which [bowls] are the prayers of teh saints."

The 24 elders are angelic beings. They are the elders of creation. They are the elders of the universe. They are not the elders of the church or else John would be among them. John was one of the original twelve disciples. Surely, the elders of the Christian church should include the apostle John who was among the original 12 disciples.

The 24 elders are introduced in chapter 4 which is very much a chapter focused on God the Creator of the universe. Since Revelation is a book not only on the future of Israel or the future of the Christian church, but of the future of the entire creation of God, it is appropriate that we understand some of the major figures of this book to be the elders of all creation. The first beings created by God were the angels. And they are the ELDEST of all the created beings.

I go with the 24 elders being elders among the angelic creations. And it is they who are bringing the prayers to God. To the prayers are added the pleasing fragrance of Jesus Christ as the incense making our requests pleasant and acceptable to God. The acceptance of God Almighty is the issue and not the acceptance of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, or Mary the mother of Jesus.

For God only is pleased with His Son. All the rest of us human beings have to stand upon the merit of the Son of God. We cannot stand upon our own merit.

I'll cut this post here. But I think the highly symbolic chapter 5 of Revelation would be less effective place to make your case then more plain teaching of prayers going to someone else besides God.

Originally posted by pyxelated
I just did. How did the ancients get vials full of prayers? They got them from the saints who prayed to them, asking them to pass their requests on to God... which the verse I quoted describes. At least, that's the Church's interpretation, and it seems pretty commonsensical and not at all farfetched to me; in fact, it seems to me like the literal sense of ...[text shortened]... eaching authority of the Church, well... you know where I'm going to end up 🙂

--pyx

Your church has you praying to other people other than God? I pointed out to
you that those prayers are the prayers the saints themselves prayed. If that is
all you got than you don't have much to stand on in my opinion. You have one
verse that in my opinion does not say what your church claims, surely
something that important has more scripture to back it up than that!
Kelly

Originally posted by jaywill
What did you read ?

Have you read anything by Witness Lee ?

http://www.witness-lee-books.org/

I don't recall the books name, I don't believe I ever heard of Witness Lee.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Your church has you praying to other people other than God? I pointed out to
you that those prayers are the prayers the saints themselves prayed. If that is
all you got than you don't have much to stand on in my opinion. You have one
verse that in my opinion does not say what your church claims, surely
something that important has more scripture to back it up than that!
Kelly

So... exactly how much scripture is necessary to make a practice acceptable, in your opinion? And is personal opinion now the gold standard for Biblical interpretation? Got any scriptural backup for that? (And would it matter?)

If personal opinion is the standard, what is your personal opinion of which books make up the Bible? And if somebody else decides that a certain book is no longer inspired, can we take it out? Or maybe add a few more? How do we tell from the Bible itself which books are inspired, anyway, and that Sacred Scripture is complete as we have it?

If all you have on these matters is personal opinion, I think we've taken this topic about as far as it will go. Have the last word if you like, but I'm done.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't recall the books name, I don't believe I ever heard of Witness Lee.
Kelly

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I don't recall the books name, I don't believe I ever heard of Witness Lee.
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The two men were co-workers together on the mainland of China. Other co-workers existed to many of which were imprisoned by the Communist Revolution. Nee spent the last 20 years of his life in a prison and was martyred for the Lord Jesus there.

Nee insisted that his co-worker Witness Lee not remain in China when the communist took over. He sent him to the Island of Taiwan. Though Lee wanted to remain behind to suffer the same martyrdom Nee told him that if Satan were to wipe them out in China, Lee should escape that so that they would still have something left.

These men had revelation from God. In my humble opinion they were both genuine apostles of Christ. I think that God had to start something fresh in a country not yet having Christianity spoiled - a "virgin" land, so to speak. And there the recovery of many vital truths were recovered for the Body of Christ.

Witness Lee recently went to be with the Lord in the late 90s. His books and messages by the hundreds can be obtained and his co-workers are active on across the globe carrying out Nee and Lee's vision of the recovery of the church life and many crucial aspects of God's eternal purpose.

http://www.lordsrecovery.org/

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
I don't recall the books name, I don't believe I ever heard of Witness Lee.
======================

The two men were co-workers together on the mainland of China. Other co-workers existed to many of which were imprisoned by the Communist Revolution. Nee spent the last 20 years of his life in a priso ...[text shortened]... and many crucial aspects of God's eternal purpose.

http://www.lordsrecovery.org/[/b]

It has been a very long time since I read anything by him, I believe one thing
I do recall he wrote about was about the sons of Zadok, it was how they were
to minister to the Lord. Reason being they were faithful when the others had
fallen away at one point. For me when I thought about that I applied it to my
worship time, during church when we are singing, in my humble voice I try to
forget about this world and minister to the Lord. It reminds me that I should
not always be going to God with my hand out, but keep the relationship where
I try to be more than someone who is always asking God for things. I will say
I enjoy worship much more than many other things, it is a blessing.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It has been a very long time since I read anything by him, I believe one thing
I do recall he wrote about was about the sons of Zadok, it was how they were
to minister to the Lord. Reason being they were faithful when the others had
fallen away at one point. For me when I thought about that I applied it to my
worship time, during church when we are sing ...[text shortened]... r things. I will say
I enjoy worship much more than many other things, it is a blessing.
Kelly

That was a blessed piece of ministry to me that you shared.

Ministry to the House or to the Lord may have been the booklet from which you received that matter.

But it is a good word always, that makes out hearts single for God. That is seeking God for Himself. That is seeking Christ for Himself because He is altogether lovely. Who is like our Beloved.

Our various needs are of course often legitimate needs. But what is our most basic need as Christians ? It is just the Lord Himself to be our everything.

Amen. Thanks for sharing. And Witness Lee's book called The Experience of Life is probably the best practical book on spiritual growth that I have ever read.

Most of these books are available Online to read from Living Stream Ministry

Here's a sample of its table of contents and contents:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%22%28%2EL%20%0A

Originally posted by jaywill
That was a blessed piece of ministry to me that you shared.

[b] Ministry to the House or to the Lord may have been the booklet from which you received that matter.

But it is a good word always, that makes out hearts single for God. That is seeking God for Himself. That is seeking Christ for Himself because He is altogether lovely. Who is like o ...[text shortened]... le of contents and contents:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%22%28%2EL%20%0A[/b]

Thanks for sharing I'll go there and read.
Kelly

Originally posted by pyxelated
So... exactly how much scripture is necessary to make a practice acceptable, in your opinion? And is personal opinion now the gold standard for Biblical interpretation? Got any scriptural backup for that? (And would it matter?)

If personal opinion is the standard, what is your personal opinion of which books make up the Bible? And if somebody else decid ...[text shortened]... 've taken this topic about as far as it will go. Have the last word if you like, but I'm done.

Kelly, I owe you an apology for the tone of my post last night. I'm just fed up with the kind of debate that in the end amounts to nothing more than slinging verses back and forth at each other. But I'm sorry for speaking with such a lack of charity.

If you would like to continue to debate this particular issue, please carry on. Now that I've read up on it, I have a lot more to say 🙂 But I can hold my peace, if that's your preference.

But again, my apologies.

Originally posted by pyxelated
So... exactly how much scripture is necessary to make a practice acceptable, in your opinion? And is personal opinion now the gold standard for Biblical interpretation? Got any scriptural backup for that? (And would it matter?)

If personal opinion is the standard, what is your personal opinion of which books make up the Bible? And if somebody else decid ...[text shortened]... 've taken this topic about as far as it will go. Have the last word if you like, but I'm done.

If you have a clear direction from scripture you need to make sure you are
getting the proper context and so on. What we are talking about is something
very important, who do you pray to! Now God answers prayer, we are to pray
in Jesus' name those I can back up with more than a few scriptures, but to
another person that is dead, really? Yes, I need something quite clear that is
the proper way to do it, if not, I'd question all the teachings of your church what
ever church that is.
Kelly

Originally posted by pyxelated
Kelly, I owe you an apology for the tone of my post last night. I'm just fed up with the kind of debate that in the end amounts to nothing more than slinging verses back and forth at each other. But I'm sorry for speaking with such a lack of charity.

If you would like to continue to debate this particular issue, please carry on. Now that I've read up on ...[text shortened]... re to say 🙂 But I can hold my peace, if that's your preference.

But again, my apologies.

🙂 If that was you in a bad tone I wish I had your temperment, I didn't realize
you were in bad humor. I'm sorry to say when I get like that, there is no
doubt I'm in bad humor.


I try but not always successfully to keep these discussions non-personal, I'm
not always very good at that as more than few people can tell you. 🙁

We can continue our discussion, I also thank you for caring that you showed me
a lack of charity, even if I didn't notice it. 🙂
Kelly