The Rapture (seriously)

If you want to be taken in an early rapture then you have to learn to be taken away by the Holy Spirit time and time again by abiding in Christ.

Temper rises up? Turn to the Lord Jesus and be "mini-raptured."

Lust seeks to gain hold? Turn to the Lord Jesus calling on His name. Be raptured mini-style.

Envy and hatred seek to engulf you? You need to call "O Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus I love you." You will be snatched away from that evil mood.

In matter after matter, the Christian practice to be caught up, caught away by the indwelling Lord Jesus.

Then when the sudden secret first rapture occurs, whenever it occurs, you will be able to rise up from the earth and be snatched away with Jesus.

Do not put any confidence in a teaching that regardless of your spiritual walk, just because you are justified, in any spiritual condition you will be raptured. That is the superficial misunderstanding of some believers.

Because there are passages on both the secret sudden snatching away before the tribulation and a open very public visible catching up of the church at the end of the tribulation, there is fighting about post or pre-trib rapture.

Few have seen that both are true. The key to understanding is that some who have LEARNED the lesson to abide will go first. And those left will learn through the intense heat of the great tribulation to make up for what they voluntarily should have seize the time to learn in better circumstances.

Revelation 3:10 - "Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."

Originally posted by OdBod
Hi Suzianne, I'm a member of the BHA and an Atheist, it's a shame you only want comments from Christians. It's loading the dice a little bit isn't it?

it's a question about a very specific piece of dogma. not much atheists and theists that don't believe in that can contribute.

other than "no, it's nonsense"

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm interested in a serious discussion about the Rapture. I've been exploring some ideas about the Tribulation, and even though I always thought the Rapture was just some wishful thinking by Christians that they could avoid the worst times ever to come to this planet, and that the only Rapture we'll see is the post-Tribulation Rapture when Christ comes bac ...[text shortened]... n, when will it happen, why do you think so, and what has guided your beliefs about the Rapture?

I have heard a lot of good discussions for both 'pre' and 'post' , I myself believe that it will be pre-tribulation.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it's a question about a very specific piece of dogma. not much atheists and theists that don't believe in that can contribute.

other than "no, it's nonsense"

Hi Zahlanzi, the point I was going to make was, is there a danger that belief in the rapture might cause those individuals to relegate world problems to secondary importance?

Originally posted by divegeester
Sorry, are you agreeing with robbie carrobie? You say "yes" in agreement and then go on to what I can only presume is a "but" about flesh and blood being "transformed"

Yes, as in ya right to his comment!

The post that was quoted here has been removed

In his Wikipedia picture he looks like Mr. Burns except with a bit more hair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Burns

The post that was quoted here has been removed

On question one, well, look at his face! On question two, well, they were Ahmuhricuns...

Originally posted by Suzianne
Um, yeah, see my post above...

That was a serious post. Hardly anybody outside the Evangelical USA takes The Rapture, as defined With Capitals, seriously. In fact, I'd say that hardly anyone knows of it at all. It is not standard Christian dogma; it does not have a solid basis in Scripture; if you trust in it, you are fooling yourself, or letting the television evangelists fool you.

And no, that was not a troll; yes, that was a serious answer, from a serious, Christian, non-USA point of view.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Note: This summary statement, as taught by Pastor Wenstrom, is based on the authority of the original languages in which the Word of God was written.

No. No, it isn't. It's based on the same kind of Hineininterpretierung as Shakespearian Baconism, or English Israelitism. He's reading whole volumes of meaning into a verse that was only meant to carry one verse of meaning.

I too believe this statement word for word. Further comment on the Rapture to follow.

So you'd rather take the statement, word for word, of a mere human, over the explicit statement of Jesus Himself that we cannot know when and how he will return?

That sounds like apostasy and hagiolatry to me.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"...what has guided your beliefs about the Rapture?"

The Word of God. I'm not too keen on extra-Biblical terminology.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says;
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Caught up" from the Greek word harp ...[text shortened]... e prior to the 70th week. But it is for certain that the event called "the rapture" will happen.

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_%27twinkling_of_an_eye%27

What is the meaning of 'twinkling of an eye'?
There are three portions of time to consider here, The wink, the blink and the twink (no kidding-there was actually a study done). A blink is a controlled movement of the eye and so it's length of time is indeterminate, but the quickest blink lasts for a half second. A blink is a reflex action of the eye and lasts somewhere between 300 and 400 milliseconds. A twink is a reflected particle of light seen in the eye and thusly travels at the speed of light (983,571,056 feet per second) This equates to an infinitesimally small fraction of a second, so it would be fair to say it occurs in about a billionth of a second (which in itself is such a small period of time as to be nearly inconceiveable, but is gigantic compared to the actual time in which a twinkle occurs). AnswerIf you blink, you will miss it. It is the same as a split second, as if a second could be split into two halves. AnswerAs the dictionary says a twinkle is light reflected from the eye,
Just how fast is the 'twinkling of an eye' ?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
It is not the time it takes to blink an eye: for you to see someone's eyes twinkle, light must travel through the front of their eye, be reflected off their retina, and then exit their eye.
Assuming (for the of ease of calculation) that you are standing close to that person so the transmission time from eyeball-to-eyeball can be regarded as instantaneous, and that a person's eyeball is 2.5 cm in diameter, the light would have to travel a distance of 5cm (or 1/20,000th or 2x10-4 of a kilometer).
Since the speed of light is 300,000 (or 3x105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds (ie 1/2 x1/3 x 10-4 x 10-5 seconds), or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person's eyeball twinkle: pretty fast.

ANSWER:
The twinkling of the eye is caused by an involuntary, very wide dialation in the eye when a person experiences an intense sexual attraction.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it's a question about a very specific piece of dogma. not much atheists and theists that don't believe in that can contribute.

other than "no, it's nonsense"

It can be approached as an investigation into the correct interpretation of a literary work. A professional with an understanding of the literature and language of the time should get the same result whether or not they are theists of any particular persuasion.

With one important exception. The reference I gave to the New Advent link refers to early Christian writers who the RCC holds in special regard, virtually as divinely inspired, as it relies on "tradition" in its reading of Biblical scripture. Thus a thorough analysis of the Rapture would probably say things like "In the RCC interpretation, the Rapture is..." and "In the Anglican tradition, the Rapture is..." But this too could be done by a non-theist, perhaps even better than by a theist of certain persuasions if they are convinced that other Christian persuasions are wrong wrong wrong.

Edit: I have been told the reference I gave might be off the mark. The above comments stand.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 2)
*"What We Believe" 26 Feb '14 22:23 Thread 158140 (Page 1)

8) "Church: We believe that the church, which is the Body of Christ is composed of all church age believers. The church is a spiritual organism, and all believers are in union with Christ and is not based upon affiliation with Christian denominations or organ ...[text shortened]... d was written. I too believe this statement word for word. Further comment on the Rapture to follow.

"The Four Views Of The Rapture"

"Introduction: The Bible teaches that the rapture will take place prior to the Tribulation period since it teaches that the church is delivered from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (NASU= 1995 Update of the NASB) This teaching that the rapture will take place prior to the Great Tribulation Period is called by theologians and students of prophecy, The “pretribulation” view.

Not all Christians adhered to this view as a result There are four different views of the rapture. I will present the arguments for each view and then demonstrate through the Scriptures that these other views are incorrect and that the “pre-tribulation” rapture view is the correct biblical view. Now we must remember that like the term “Trinity,” the term “rapture” is not found in the original languages of Scripture but rather is taken from the Latin term rapio, “caught up” that is used to translate the Greek verb harpazo, “caught up,” which appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Like the term “Trinity” the term “rapture” is used by theologians to describe a doctrine that is taught in the Bible. The “rapture” is a technical theological term for the resurrection of the church, which is imminent, invisible to the world, and terminates the church age dispensation. It will take place in the earth’s atmosphere when the Lord Jesus Christ will suddenly and forcefully remove the church from planet earth in order to deliver her from the Tribulation period (See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). The rapture is taught in John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 1:7, 15:50-57, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and Titus 2:13. 1

Thessalonians 4:13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." (NASU)

“Will be caught up” is the verb harpazo, “to snatch or take something away forcefully in such a way that no resistance is offered, to grab or seize by force with the purpose of removing and/or controlling” The verb harpazo refers to the Lord Jesus Christ taking His Church forcefully and suddenly out of the world by means of His divine omnipotence. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 "Therefore comfort one another with these words." (NASU) The rapture is the “blessed hope” of the church since it delivers her from the wrath that is to come upon a Christ rejecting world during the Tribulation period, which will be the worst period in all of human history and immediately follows the rapture. Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." (NASU)

The resurrection or rapture of the church was a mystery that was not known to Old Testament saints. 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (NASU)

The rapture is something we should be eagerly anticipating because we will receive our resurrection bodies at that time. Philippians 3:20 "For our citizenship exists from eternity past in the realm of the heavens, out from which also we ourselves at the present time are eagerly anticipating as Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ 21 who will cause our humiliating body to be outwardly transformed to be identical in essence with His glorious body because of the power that will enable Him to marshal all things created to Himself." (Author’s translation) The rapture is “imminent” meaning that it could happen at any time. Philippians 4:5 "Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near." (NASU) Lastly, unlike the Second Advent of Jesus Christ, the rapture has no signs preceding it.

The four views of the rapture: (1) “Pre-tribulation”: The rapture will take place “before” the Tribulation. (2) “Partial”: Only those believers who are worthy will be taken off the earth at the rapture. (3) “Mid-tribulation”: The rapture will take place during the “midway” point of the Tribulation. (4) “Post-tribulation: The rapture will take place “after” the Tribulation."
(2009 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries)

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/four_views_of_the_rapture.pdf

Note: Purpose of this footnote is to expand on the biblical meaning of 11) *"Rapture" summarized on Page 2.

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
No. No, it isn't. It's based on the same kind of Hineininterpretierung as Shakespearian Baconism, or English Israelitism. He's reading whole volumes of meaning into a verse that was only meant to carry one verse of meaning.

I too believe this statement word for word. Further comment on the Rapture to follow.

So you'd rather ...[text shortened]... i]we cannot know when and how he will return[/i]?

That sounds like apostasy and hagiolatry to me.

May I refer you and other skeptics to the mechanics of learning the Word of God: Thread 162427 (Page 7/11th Post)

Originally posted by divegeester
If find myself having to agree with robbie carrobie and RBHILL, which does bring a quizzical look to my face.

However it's not a topic I've particularly looked at; I don't think there is sufficient scriptural evidence to support a "rapture" and the concept jars with me for some reason.

I felt the same way about it. It seemed to me too many Christians were all like "The Tribulation? Who cares, I won't be here." I felt too many were thinking of it as some kind of "Get out of jail free" card. Lately, however, I've been re-focused towards it as something that could be entirely plausible, a thought I hadn't really entertained before. About all I can get out of most Christians about it though, is the same old, same old. I'm not hearing anything lately from Christians that really convinces me. What does come much closer to convincing me, and making me take a second look at it, is the Tribulation timeline. The actual events prophesied to take place. It makes perfect sense when seen as part of an overall plan.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it's a question about a very specific piece of dogma. not much atheists and theists that don't believe in that can contribute.

other than "no, it's nonsense"

Exactly. But now I find myself on the cusp of changing camps. That's why I created this thread.