The Rapture (seriously)

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, then I invite you to stay on in this thread and explore the possibilities as I do.

If it is indeed true that European Christians, as a group, do not generally believe in a Rapture, pre-Tribulation or otherwise, I have to wonder if this has anything at all to do with the prevailing idea that the AntiChrist will be a European politician

No, you still don't get it. There are no possibilities.

You're still reading too much into a handful of verses, and taking what is very much an analogy far, far too literally. Stop trying to extract a gallon of literal prediction from a dram of imagery.

All these theories about The Rapture this and The Tribulations that are, as Isaac Asimov once put it, like someone reading a statement that "the country is going to the dogs" and imagining that there really will be pack of wild demonic hounds rampaging across the land. There simply isn't any justification for it.

And now you're dragging Santorum-level Europhobia into it, I really see no reason to take anything in this discussion seriously any more. It's turned into a demonstration of how insane USAliens really are, and I say goodbye to all you literalist nutters.

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
No, you still don't get it. There are no possibilities.

You're still reading too much into a handful of verses, and taking what is very much an analogy far, far too literally. Stop trying to extract a gallon of literal prediction from a dram of imagery.

All these theories about The Rapture this and The Tribulations that are, as Isaac Asimov ...[text shortened]... ation of how insane USAliens really are, and I say goodbye to all you literalist nutters.

" far too literally"

Why would anything anyone takes literally be anything less than that?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by sonship
"..... Afterall - strictly speaking "rapture" (not a biblical word) means an ecstatic happiness...." "And we even should pray and petition that God WOULD fulfill His word."
_________________________________

The word "rapture" in this biblical context depicts an imminent prophetic event in God's Plan with the exp ...[text shortened]... ://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/four_views (Page 3 of Suzi's thread)

"..... Afterall - strictly speaking "rapture" (not a biblical word) means an ecstatic happiness...." "And we even should pray and petition that God WOULD fulfill His word."


- sonship

PS - I realize fully the physical aspects of the theological usage of the word rapture. And the fulfilling of God's word is best accompanied by our participation in petition for His fulfillment.

The example of Daniel praying for the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy was given as an example. God is also doing a work IN His people and not just over or around His people.

- sonship

Originally posted by Shallow Blue

All these theories about The Rapture this and The Tribulations that are, as Isaac Asimov ation of how insane USAliens really are, and I say goodbye to all you literalist nutters.[/b]

l these theories about The Rapture this and The Tribulations that are, as Isaac Asimov once put it, like someone reading a statement that "the country is going to the dogs" and imagining that there really will be pack of wild demonic hounds rampaging across the land. There simply isn't any justification for it.

The analogy is not accurate. And Isaac Asimov, in spite of publishing a commentary on much of the Bible, was better at science fiction writing than at teaching Christians how to understand the holy Scriptures.

We believers in Christ could advize you to stop trying to water down the promises of God with your on kind of unbelief in the truthfulness of Christ and His apostles.

- sonship (from gswilm's PC)

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
No, you still don't get it. There are no possibilities.

You're still reading too much into a handful of verses, and taking what is very much an analogy far, far too literally. Stop trying to extract a gallon of literal prediction from a dram of imagery.

All these theories about The Rapture this and The Tribulations that are, as Isaac Asimov ...[text shortened]... ation of how insane USAliens really are, and I say goodbye to all you literalist nutters.

Then you'll excuse me for attempting to inject some intelligence into your ranting and raving, since the ranting and raving all by itself was not exactly helpful to anybody.

I didn't realize your mind was closed like a steel trap. And also as cold as the steel it's made of. So go already. And take your rather disgusting stereotypes of Americans with you. I guess my initial reaction about your trolling was right on. And don't act all surprised when I remember next time how excitable you get when *your* Euro-centrism is threatened.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Hey, Joe, did you change your avatar for the occasion of this thread?

No, not really. Just playing with it I guess. 😉

Originally posted by DeepThought
That goes without saying really, we don't know when anything is going to happen until it does.

With regard to this post. What prevailing idea that the AntiChrist will be a European Politician? Is this something Americans actually think? Why European and not American or Chinese? In answer to your last sentence, this is not something the Church of E ...[text shortened]... we will all die sooner or later anyway so at an individual level it doesn't make any difference.

You're not a Christian, are you? I think I remember you saying something once about your belief not being the 'full-on' belief of the Christians, but rather an 'agnostic type' of belief.

Again, this is why I invited Christians to take part in this discussion. I have yet to see or hear of a non-Christian who even understands this bit of dogma, much less one who takes it to heart and believes in its specifics. Yes, I get it that non-Christians look askance at this topic, and yes, that is why I initially excluded non-Christians from the conversation. They're just not on-board with the idea, and bringing them on-board (or at least educating them on the material) is well beyond the scope of this thread or of my patience, frankly.

For example, there's your first sentence. We don't know when anything is going to happen until it does. This is not true. Christians know some things about prophecy because God tells us through the Bible. But I'm not even going to expect non-Christians to be on-board with this concept, and I'm really not going to wait around until they are, either. Like I said, there is a reason why I initially excluded the opinions of non-Christians from the thread. It's like an NBA fan wanting to discuss basketball. He wants to discuss it with other fans, not someone who has no clue what basketball even is.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Like I said, there is a reason why I initially excluded the opinions of non-Christians from the thread. It's like an NBA fan wanting to discuss basketball. He wants to discuss it with other fans, not someone who has no clue what basketball even is.

You could, of course, just be selective about which contributors' posts you respond to. It doesn't make much sense to suggest that people who do not share your beliefs ~ but who have perhaps read hundreds and hundreds of posts about the religious topic in hand ~ have "no clue" about what is being discussed.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The rapture will occur "immediately after the Tribulation" when Christ returns in His glory.

You surprise me, Ron. I had you pegged as a pre-Trib Rapture guy.

This is what my stance on it was, too, that the only Rapture we'd be seeing is when Christ comes back to reclaim His people, as the Warrior-Messiah the Jews have been expecting for thousands of years. So you can imagine how uncomfortable I now feel now that I'm just not sure about the possibility of a pre-Trib Rapture and the whole "catching up and taking away" the Christians so that they will be spared the Great Tribulation and His wrath which necessarily comes with it. Do you think that Christians will also be made to suffer through the coming Great Tribulation along with everyone else?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"What is the meaning of 'twinkling of an eye'?"

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The amount of time it takes light to pass threw the retina.[/b]

Could this mean the seventh trumpet out of Revelation
chapter 11:15-19. So it could be a mid-rapture?

The Seventh Trumpet Brings the Third Terror
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven:

“The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign forever and ever.”
16 The twenty-four elders sitting on their thrones before God fell with their faces to the ground and worshiped him. 17 And they said,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God, the Almighty,
the one who is and who always was,
for now you have assumed your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were filled with wrath,
but now the time of your wrath has come.
It is time to judge the dead
and reward your servants the prophets,
as well as your holy people,
and all who fear your name,
from the least to the greatest.
It is time to destroy
all who have caused destruction on the earth.”
19 Then, in heaven, the Temple of God was opened and the Ark of his covenant could be seen inside the Temple. Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and roared, and there was an earthquake and a terrible hailstorm.

Originally posted by FMF
You could, of course, just be selective about which contributors' posts you respond to. It doesn't make much sense to suggest that people who do not share your beliefs ~ but who have perhaps read hundreds and hundreds of posts about the religious topic in hand ~ have "no clue" about what is being discussed.

My position is that if someone has "read hundreds and hundreds of posts" about the events in Revelation, then it stands to reason that they wouldn't be asking these types of elementary questions about it. I can't be expected to discuss this topic seriously while also educating others about it. One generally doesn't expect to discuss Shakespeare with third graders. I mean you could approach some English Literature by 8th grade, maybe, but you certainly wouldn't be having a discussion on "Was Shakespeare only the pen name of another famous author?"

I don't mean disrespect. But I'm not going to have my thread diluted by the "Revelation is fantasy!! Are you people crazy??" crowd. That's not why I created it. If you want to have this discussion, create your own thread.

Originally posted by RBHILL
Could this mean the seventh trumpet out of Revelation
chapter 11:15-19. So it could be a mid-rapture?

The Seventh Trumpet Brings the Third Terror
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven:

“The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign forever and ever.”
16 ...[text shortened]... tning flashed, thunder crashed and roared, and there was an earthquake and a terrible hailstorm.

Some believe that "the last trump" of Revelation, and the "trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4, and "the last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15 are the same "trump".

They may be. I don't know for sure. I think RJ thinks they are. That's ok!

God knows.

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]THE SIGN OF HIS COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My nam ...[text shortened]... s as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)[/b]

The Rapture of the Church and the Second Advent of Christ are two entirely separate eschatological events seven years apart [the first terminating the Church Age and the second beginning the Millennial Reign of Christ]. True or False?

Originally posted by Suzianne
My position is that if someone has "read hundreds and hundreds of posts" about the events in Revelation, then it stands to reason that they wouldn't be asking these types of elementary questions about it. I can't be expected to discuss this topic seriously while also educating others about it. One generally doesn't expect to discuss Shakespeare with third ...[text shortened]... owd. That's not why I created it. If you want to have this discussion, create your own thread.

Have you come to a conclusion yet?

Do you believe yet that there is in fact a so-called "rapture" of the church?

I think the "when" of it is still up for debate!

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
The Rapture of the Church and the Second Advent of Christ are two entirely separate eschatological events seven years apart [the first terminating the Church Age and the second beginning the Millennial Reign of Christ]. True or False?

I think you'd get no argument from Ron about this, but I'm fairly certain that he believes they will happen consecutively (first the Second Advent and then the Rapture, both immediately post-Tribulation) and not seven years apart. (This is what I believed for years.) I'm interested to hear what he says about it; I don't mean to speak for him.