The Rapture (seriously)

Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]"You've avoided the more important questions I was asking. First why a European? The number of the beast is variously 666 or 616, the theory about this that I find most convincing is the one based on Gematria (turning words into numbers). The Emperor Nero's Greek title when translated into Hebrew and then converted into a number yields 666 and the Lat ...[text shortened]... ng on being "Left Behind". And at this point in my life, this means some work needs to be done.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Correction: The tribulation to come is a result of Satan's wrath after he is kicked out of heaven and knows he has little time. God's wrath delivered by Christ at His coming is on those that follow after Satan. 😏

Originally posted by sonship
And that happens because of the rapture of a group of believers who were martyred called the manchild. So they had to have been rapture to God's throne before the great tribulation.

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Nonsense. the male child or man child in the vision represents Christ Jesus.

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

(Revelation 12:5 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds
Correction: The tribulation to come is a result of Satan's wrath after he is kicked out of heaven and knows he has little time. God's wrath delivered by Christ at His coming is on those that follow after Satan. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Nonsense. the male child or man child in the vision represents Christ Jesus.

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

(Revelation 12:5 NASB)

"Rev. 12:1 Then a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman [the nation Israel] clothed with the sun [Jacob] and the moon [the wives of Jacob] under her feet, and a crown [royalty] of twelve stars [the 12 patriarchs or sons of Jacob] upon her head [reference to the origin of the Jewish race].

Rev. 12:2 Nevertheless, since she [the nation Israel] is in possession of [conceived] a child in pregnancy [Jesus Christ], she cries out, both screaming from labor pains [internal suffering] and being tormented [tossed to-and-fro, straining from within] to finally give birth.

Rev. 12:3 Then another sign was seen in heaven, and behold a great red dragon [Satan], having seven heads [presidents or kings who have held Israel captive] and ten horns [representing the 10-nation confederacy of the revived Roman Empire in the future]. Furthermore, on these heads [presidents or kings] were seven crowns [representing political and military authority],

Rev. 12:4 And his tail [symbolizing authority arrogance and rebellion] dragged away [in revolution] a third of the stars [fallen angels] of heaven [followers of Satan]. In fact, He [God the Father] cast them to the earth [during Satan’s great desperation in the middle of the Tribulation]. Then the dragon [Satan] stood before the woman [Israel] who was about to give birth, so that when she [Israel] gave birth, he might destroy her son [Jesus Christ, the Messiah].

Rev. 12:5 And then she [Israel] gave birth to a son [Jesus Christ], a male child [possessing a perfect proportion of all masculine qualities], Who is destined to rule all nations [during the millennium] with an iron scepter [use of capital punishment]. Furthermore, her son [Jesus Christ] was caught up [ascension] face-to-face with God [the Father], even before His throne [session].

Rev. 12:6 And so the woman [true Israel: believers only] fled [during the 2nd half of the Tribulation] into the uninhabited desert, where she had a place of refuge which had been prepared by God, in order that they [Father, Son & Spirit] might sustain her [true Israel] there for one thousand two hundred sixty days.

Rev. 12:7 Meanwhile, there was war in heaven, where Michael and his [army of elect] angels fought against the dragon [Satan]. Furthermore, the dragon and his [army of fallen] angels fought back [during the time of Satan’s desperation],

Rev. 12:8 But he [Satan] did not have the power to win, neither was a place found for them [Satan and his fallen angels] any longer in heaven [they will be kicked out of heaven in the middle of the tribulation and will live on earth during the last half].

Rev. 12:9 Then the great dragon [Satan] was thrown out [cast out of heaven by Michael and the elect angels], the ancient snake [the serpent in Genesis 3:1], who is called the devil and Satan, who keeps on deceiving the inhabited earth, was cast down to the earth, and his [fallen] angels were cast out with him.

Rev. 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now deliverance has come [at the 2nd advent of Christ], as well as power [omnipotence], even the [millennial] kingdom of God [the Father] and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our fellow believers [the devil], who constantly brings charges against them [in the court of heaven] day and night before our God, has been thrown out.

Rev. 12:11 Furthermore, they [believers under satanic attack] overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb [spiritual death of Christ on the cross] and through doctrine [the Word of God] because of their testimony [application of doctrine]. In fact, they do not love their soul [life] to the point of death [they did not avoid martyrdom].

Rev. 12:12 For this reason [because of your victory over Satan], keep on celebrating, you heavens [believers who already have their resurrection bodies] and you who dwell in them [believers in interim bodies]. Woe [3rd woe] to the land and sea, because the devil has come down face-to-face with you [after being kicked-out of heaven] having great anger [frustrated pride and arrogance], knowing that he has only a short time.

Rev. 12:13 Now when the dragon [Satan] saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he began persecuting the woman [Israel] who gave birth [racial source] to a male child [the humanity of Christ Jesus].

Rev. 12:14 Nevertheless, the two wings of the great eagle [representing angelic protection during the Tribulation] had been given to the woman [Israel], so that she might fly [escape] to her place [refuge] in the uninhabited desert, where she will be sustained [logistical grace support: physical and spiritual] in that place for a time and times and one half a time [3-1/2 years] from the presence of the serpent [Satan].

Rev. 12:15 Then the serpent [Satan] vomited out of his mouth water like a roaring river [3rd demon assault force] engulfing the woman [Israel], so that he might cause her [Israel] to be swept away by the roaring river [drown in a flood of demon soldiers].

Rev. 12:16 Nevertheless, the land [divine protection] helped the woman [deliverance for Israel]. In fact, the land opened its mouth and swallowed the roaring river [3rd demon assault force] which the dragon [Satan] had vomited from his mouth.

Rev. 12:17 Then the dragon [Satan] became furious [frustrated hatred, arrogant tantrum] at the woman [Israel], and he departs to prepare battle plans [wage war] against the remnant [survivors] of her posterity [the elect of Israel] who keep on observing the mandates of God [eschatological doctrines for the 2nd half of the tribulation] and who keep on having and holding the testimony about Jesus.

Rev. 13:1 Then he [Satan] took his stand on the sand [innumerable multitude of humanity] of the seashore [Satan is sequestered on earth for the 1st time in history]. Then I saw a beast [the Antichrist: dictator of the revived Roman Empire] who ascended from the sea [the nations], and he had ten horns [ten nations who were part of the ancient Roman Empire] and seven heads [political leaders during the 2nd half of the tribulation], and on these horns [the revived Roman Empire] were ten crowns [political leaders during the 1st half of the tribulation], and upon his heads [leaders of the revived Roman Empire] is a name [authoritative religious title] insulting and slandering God [an evil, global, mandatory religion that blasphemes God].

Rev. 13:2 Furthermore, the beast [Antichrist] which I saw was like a leopard [bold conquest], and his feet were like a bear [pro-semitic emphasis during the 1st half of the tribulation], and his mouth was like the mouth of a lion [anti-semitic emphasis during the 2nd half of the tribulation]. And the dragon [Satan] gave him [Antichrist] his [demonic] power and his throne [title and rank] and great [political and religious] authority.

Rev. 13:3 Then I saw one of his heads [political leaders during the 1st half of the tribulation] which seemed [appeared] to have been fatally wounded [his nation was on the verge of annihilation], nevertheless, his deadly wound [imminent military defeat] became healed [his nation survived]. And the entire earth [all mankind is restricted by verse 8 to the non-elect] became struck with amazement." http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/rev.pdf

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Rev. 12:1 Then a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman [the nation Israel] clothed with the sun [Jacob] and the moon [the wives of Jacob] under her feet, and a crown [royalty] of twelve stars [the 12 patriarchs or sons of Jacob] upon her head [reference to the origin of the Jewish race].

Rev. 12:2 Nevertheless, since she [the nation Israel] is in p ...[text shortened]... struck with amazement." http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/rev.pdf

Originally posted by Suzianne
That's very good, GB. I see you attribute this with a link to a website. I'll visit this and take a look.

One little thing in there I want to point to for a second is this concept of the Beast having ten horns and ten crowns and yet only 7 heads. Yes, this is a prophecy of the revived Roman Empire, a ten-member coalition that is yet to be (the Europea ...[text shortened]... nly 7 leaders who fall in line and follow the Beast (7 heads). I just wanted to point this out.

Something on the blood of the Lamb which is edifying to all.

I think it is from The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee. I am not sure if the second paragraph is from the same book. (I could check). God knows. And it is good.

“Revelation 7:9 says that the garment is a white robe. It has been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. We must remember that we can only be made white by being cleansed from our sins through the blood. Not only must we be cleansed from our sins, but we must also be cleansed from our good behavior. It too can only be made white by being washed in the blood. Not a single deed of any Christian is originally white. Even if we have some righteousness, it is mixed and not pure. We often have been kind to others, but inwardly we have been unwilling. We often have been patient with others, but when we have gone home we have murmured. Therefore, after having done some righteous deed, we still need the cleansing of the blood. We need the blood of the Lord Jesus to cleanse us from the sins we commit, and we also need the blood of the Lord Jesus to cleanse our righteous acts."

“No Christian can ever make a garment which is pure white. Even if we could make one which was ninety-nine percent pure, there would still be one percent of mixture. Before God no man is entirely without blemish. Even good deeds done out of our love for the Lord need the cleansing of the blood. A very spiritual man once said that even the tears he shed for sin needed to be washed by the blood. Oh, even tears of repentance need to be cleansed by the blood! Therefore, Revelation 7:14 indicates that their robes were made white in the blood of the Lamb. We have nothing of which we can boast. From the outside to the inside, nothing is entirely pure. The more we know ourselves, the more we will realize how filthy we are. Our best deeds and our best intentions are mixed with filthiness. Without the cleansing of the blood, it is impossible to be white.”

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 6)
Following the Rapture in Heaven: Every Church Age believer will be immediately transformed from a temporal body of corruption to an eternal body of incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15: 42-43 [i]"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown
[a]a perishable body, it is raised [b]an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised i ...[text shortened]... t who will lead the royal procession to heaven. (1 of 2) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage (NASB)

Concerning the Woman in Revelation 12 (Is She Just Israel or someting more?)

This is from "The Life Study of Revelation" by Witness Lee (given in and around 1978 in Anehiem California)


copied from http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=0811

The first important detail and crucial matter in the second half of Revelation is the woman mentioned in 12:1. This verse says, “And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” Here, the woman is revealed in the heavens and is called “a great sign.” This great sign is not of a strong man, but of a woman. The woman in this tremendous vision is not on the earth but in the heavens. She is clothed with the sun, underneath her feet is the moon, and on her head is a crown of twelve stars. She is under the shining of the twelve stars, above the shining of the moon, and enveloped with the shining of the sun. Because of this, she is fully emancipated. Anything that is in darkness is bound and imprisoned, but anything that is in the light is released and emancipated.

Would you like to be a part of this woman? Let me ask you this question: Are you a male or a female? All the sisters, of course, find this question easy to answer. But what would the brothers say? If they say that they are males, then they have no part in the woman of this vision. Does this woman include you? If it does, then, in the eyes of God, you are a female.

From the beginning of the Bible to the end, in the eyes of God, God’s people are considered as a woman. Isaiah 54:5 says, “Thy Maker is thine husband.” In Jeremiah 3:14 the Lord tells His children that He is married to them, and in Jeremiah 31:32 He says that He is a husband to them. Moreover, in Hosea 2:19 and 20 the Lord says that He will betroth His people unto Himself forever. Although, as we all know, the Lord Jesus came as the Savior and as the Lamb, one day He indicated to His disciples that He came as the Bridegroom (Matt. 9:15; John 3:29). Furthermore, in 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul says, “I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” Brothers, do you have a husband? Praise the Lord that our husband is Christ. Naturally, we brothers are males, but spiritually, we are, in a sense, females in God’s eyes. In God’s eternal economy there is one unique man— Christ. Adam was a symbol, a type, of Christ as the Bridegroom, and Eve, the wife of Adam, was the symbol, a type, of God’s people being the counterpart, the wife, of Christ. Therefore, in His economy God’s redeemed people are always considered by Him as His wife, and God considers Himself as their husband. In Revelation 12 we have the woman and her child, but here we are not told who her husband is. Nevertheless, this chapter reveals that she is pregnant and is about to deliver her child. By whom did she become pregnant, and who is the source of her child? By reading the whole Bible, we see that the husband is God in Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
Concerning the Woman in Revelation 12 (Is She Just Israel or someting more?)

This is from [b]"The Life Study of Revelation" by Witness Lee (given in and around 1978 in Anehiem California)


copied from http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=0811

I. A SYMBOL OF THE TOTALITY
OF GOD’S PEOPLE

It is difficult to understand the book of Revelation. If we would rightly interpret this book, we need all the other sixty-five books of the Bible. Hence, in order to understand who this woman is, we need the whole Bible. Some Christian teachers have held the concept that this woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, and that the man-child is Jesus. This concept, however, does not suit the context of this chapter because Jesus ascended to the heavens nearly two thousand years ago. But in 12:5 and 6 we are told that the man-child will be raptured to the throne of God and that, following this, the woman will be nourished for “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” (v. 6). These twelve hundred sixty days are three and a half years or forty-two months (12:14; 11:2-3; 13:5), which will be the period of the great tribulation. This proves that the man-child is not the Lord Jesus and that the woman is not Mary. Mary was just a single woman on earth, but this woman is universally corporate and is revealed in heaven.

Others say that this woman is Israel, the Jewish race. Some of those who hold this view take Genesis 37:9 as their basis. According to this verse, Joseph had a dream in which “the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance” to him. Since the woman wears the sun and the twelve stars and stands upon the moon, apparently corresponding to Joseph’s dream concerning his family, it is said that the woman in Revelation 12 must signify Israel, the Jewish people. But 12:17 proves that this woman does not only comprise those who “keep the commandments of God,” but also those who “have the testimony of Jesus.” Those who “keep the commandments of God” are Jews. However, those who “have the testimony of Jesus” must be New Testament believers, not Jews. This is a strong proof that the woman is not only composed of Jews but of two classes of people: the Jews who keep the commandments of God and the believers who have the testimony of Jesus. Therefore, to say that this woman is merely Israel does not fit the whole context of this chapter.

The woman in this chapter is the totality of God’s people. According to the vision, this totality is in three sections: the section of her head with the twelve stars, the section of her body clothed with the sun, and the section of her feet on the moon. Hence, this woman is universal, composed of the twelve stars, the moon, and the sun. In Joseph’s dream, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars plus Joseph himself signified the total composition of God’s people on earth. Based upon the principle of that dream, the sun, the moon, and the twelve stars here must signify the totality of God’s people on earth, which in this chapter is symbolized by a woman.

Most of her being is clothed with the sun. The sun signifies God’s people in the New Testament age. Before Christ came into the world, it was the dark night of the Old Testament age. When Christ came, it was the sunrising from on high (Luke 1:78 KJV, margin), the beginning of the age of the sun. Before that, it was the age of the moon, which signifies God’s people in the Old Testament time. The moon is under the feet of the woman, for the age of the moon was the age of the law, which should not be exalted as the stars. The stars, which signify the patriarchs, God’s people before the law was given, are on her head as a crown. All God’s people in these three ages, who together constitute this woman, are light bearers. Hence, she is the bright woman shining throughout all generations.

Originally posted by sonship
It represents Christ but NOT ALONE.

It represents Christ DISPENSED into some overcoming believers who are there to take the lead in the spiritual warfare.

I am not writing this for your sake RJHinds. We've debated this before and we both remain unpersuaded by the other.

The manchild is the [b]"THEY" who overcome because they LIVE Christ and C ...[text shortened]... d it won't stop the martyred overcomers from the past from being raptured before the 1,260 days.[/b]

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes, that is true, but the group of people sonship is talking about and calling the "manchild" is a different thing. Don't get confused by the word similarity.