Originally posted by checkbaiterLike the jehovahs witnesses your doctrine has led you to have two saviours; Jehovah and Jesus. Jehovah says in the Old Testament:
Sure, God is my savior through Jesus Christ.
"I am the Lord and besides me, there is no saviour".
Isaiah 43:11
If you believe that Jesus is not Jehovah, not God himself revealed then, saying "Jehovah is your saviour through Jesus" is just a fudge of what scripture is saying.
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Originally posted by divegeesterDivegeester, on one discussion you raised (I believe) some interesting things about Nicodemus and the teachers of Israel and John 3. I have not had time to discuss those matters. But they certainly deserved discussion.
[b]"I am the Lord and besides me, there is no saviour".
Isaiah 43:11[/b]
Do you recall which discussion it was ?
Originally posted by divegeesterAt the time of Isaiah there was no Jesus and therefore no other Saviour but God.
[b]"I am the Lord and besides me, there is no saviour".
Isaiah 43:11[/b]
Clearly as time went on and in the time of the Apostles, God sent his Son Jesus to be the Saviour of the world.
Its not rocket science.
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
By God’s grace, Christians have today what Jesus spoke about and what was promised to Israel. The obvious presence of holy spirit in the Old Testament along with theologians not realizing that this “spirit” that Jesus spoke of in John 7:39 was different from the holy spirit that God gave to beleivers before the Day of Pentecost had a serious consequence.
He Who was breathed into the disciples Whom they were told to receive was the same Holy Spirit as did cloth the disciples with power on Pentecost.
Wanting John 7:39 to “make sense,” the men who copied the biblical text added to this verse as they copied it. Therefore, among the thousands of Greek texts in existence, there are several different later renditions, among them that the spirit “was not yet given,” “was not yet upon them,” and “not yet came.” [For more information on the various ways this verse appears in the Greek manuscripts, see Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 218.
What do you believe ?
Sure, copyists discrepancies are evident on many usually minor instances.
I believe that whether they added "not yet given" or "not yet" something else it makes sense that that Spirit was not yet at all.
The hin of olive oil in Exodus 30 was yet before the compounding was completed. But the full anointing oil was not yet until the four ingredients were compounded into the hin of oil.
Kelly objects to me describing the contents of the eternal Spirit as "ingredients". But with reverence this is meant to show how the birth, life, living, death, resurrection and ascension all went into the eternal Spirit "compounding" Jesus of Nazareth as "ingredients" into the Spirit that the church received.
Why does this not make sense to more people ?
A hin of oil is like a complete unit. That is like an pound of twelve ounces is a complete unit. The hin of olive oil is the BASE. And into the base were compounded the four spices.
Into the complete unit of the eternal Spirit that was there in creation brooding over the face of the waters was one day compounded a Nazarene - Jesus. He was God who became a man. And the process of His human living as a man among other created men became "ingredients" of the eternal Spirit once Jesus was glorified.
"For the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified"
I take expert Metzger's word for it that copyists may have added a word or so to "help" the understanding of the reader in this.
John recalls that the Man Jesus of Nazareth could not be imparted INTO His believers until the coming of the Spirit of reality. His coming was the coming of the man Jesus to them.
" .. the Spirit of reality whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you ..."
The man Jesus abode with them, in their midst, among them, as a normal human would physically be with them.
" ... He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."
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The eternal Spirit picked up the additional "ingredients" that resulted from the human life of Jesus. And the eternal Spirit coming to them after His resurrection on that evening in chapter 20, as the Holy Spirit was compounded with the life, living, death, and ascension of the Nazarene.
He had ascended in the morning and come back in the evening. He did not allow Mary to touch Him because the first to enjoy His resurrection must be the Father in heaven. So He ascended that morning and came again in the evening allowing the disciples then to touch Him.
" Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." (20:17)
Then in the evening He came back down to earth and allowed the disciples to handle Him physcially.
"And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side, The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord." (20:20)
He allowed them to handle Him only after His ascension tot he Father had occurred.
"And He said to them, Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your heart? See My hands and My feet, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you behold Me having. And He showed them His hands and His feet. .. He said to them, Do you have anything to eat?
And they handed Him a piece of broiled fish. And He took it and ate it before them.' (See Luke 24:38-43)
This resurrected man was not in the eternal Spirit. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit. And the things of His living and life for those thirty three and a half years was compounded into the divine Spirit to be breathed into the disciples.
The Spirit was NOW as Jesus had been glorified.
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Of course the Spirit has many functions. He could dramatically make another manifestation to them by clothing them with power after days of confession and prayer. This took place on Pentecost - the same Spirit with a different function or different aspect of His operation.
Brother is heavy Pentecostal movements should realize that there is a difference between life and power. When I was in the Pentacostal movement I also had not much spiritual life. I had boldness to preach. But I was weak in life and actually fell into some of the worst sins as a Christian during that time.
You see, I was over confident in "power" and inexperienced in deeper life. John was thorough and most balanced. His Gospel specifies that Christ's Spirit first had to impart divine life. Life internally is more important than outward power.
I did not say power was not important. It is. I said Life internally is more basic and necessary than following outward power.
In the Old Testament the man Samson is a serious lesson on this.
Though he had been endowed outwardly with great power he lacked self control and it became his downfall.
John underscores that before the disciples were endued with power they had to receive the Holy Spirit for inward life in spiritual birth.
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Originally posted by KellyJay
Adam was never a life giving "Spirit", the correct way for that to translated would be "spirit".
What translation was that pulled out of?
Adam was never a life giving "Spirit", the correct way for that to translated would be "spirit".
I never wrote that Adam was a life giving Spirit (capital or small s). I QUOTED the Bible.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)
It does say that the first man Adam became a living SOUL, doesn't it ? (1 Cor. 15:45a)
"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'; the last Adam became a life giving Spirit."
And what the last Adam Christ was should be capitalized. Life giving Spirit like -
" ... ministers of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6b)
The Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God , gives life. Christ became a life giving Spirit.
He told us again that it is the Spirit that gives life.
" It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing ..." ( John 6:63a)
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John says that "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:39)
Now some readers protest to me and say - "No, 'the Spirit was not yet [supplied word] GIVEN' ".
Didn't Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matt. 12:28) ?
"But if I, by the Spirit of God, cast out demons, ..." (Matt. 12:28)
And did Jesus not give that same authority to the twelve disciples before His death and resurrection ?
"And He called His twelve disciples to Him and gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they would cast them out ..." (Matt. 10:1a)
So how then can we understand that "the Spirit was not yet GIVEN, because Jesus was not yet glorified." ?
Look, Jesus utilized the Spirit to cast out demons.
Jesus gave to the disciples to do the same thing giving them authority.
So how can we understand John to mean the Spirit was NOT yet GIVEN in John 7:39. ?
But if we understand it without the supplied English word given we are back to "the Spirit was not YET, because Jesus was not yet glorified." meaning something else.
This, I think, is quite logical.
Originally posted by sonshipI recall the topic, sorry.
Divegeester, on one discussion you raised (I believe) some interesting things about Nicodemus and the teachers of Israel and [b]John 3. I have not had time to discuss those matters. But they certainly deserved discussion.
Do you recall which discussion it was ?[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipI tank you are overthinking this, or I'm misunderstanding you.
I think I can recall the basic concept which I may have time for latter today.
If you have time and wish to, give your feeling about the question posed immediately above.
Clearly the "spirit" of God has being on earth since Genesis so the "given" you are referring to is a different aspect of the spirit's activity I.e. Baptism in the spirit.