1. Standard membersonship
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    The word given in the KJV is supplied by the translators in John 7:39. It does not appear in the original language. And the RcV translates verse 39 as "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

    I have never discussed this before, I don't think, on this Forum. The time has come examine this with some of you.

    The Spirit of God is eternal (Heb. 9:11) and certainly pre-existent to the New Testament ( Genesis 1:2). Why then did John say that the Spirit was NOT YET? Many assume that he meant "not yet GIVEN " .

    He wrote that they Spirit was not yet. Let's talk about it.

    In connection with John 7:39 I will discuss First Corinthians 15:45 which says -

    "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" ( 1 Cor. 15:45b)


    1.) What does it mean that the Spirit was not yet ?

    2.) What does it mean that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit ?
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 May '16 12:39
    Originally posted by sonship
    The word given in the KJV is supplied by the translators in [b]John 7:39. It does not appear in the original language. And the RcV translates verse 39 as "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

    I have never discussed this before, I don't think, on this Forum. The time has come examine this with some of you ...[text shortened]... Spirit was not yet ?

    2.) What does it mean that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit ?[/b]
    John 7: 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    When Jesus died and the Holy Spirit came this indwelling of the Spirit was new it had
    never happen before, unlike the days of OT when God's Spirit fell on those God wanted
    to use and bless. Now the Spirit of God would live within His people, a seal, a guide, a
    teacher...

    1 Samuel 10:10
    When they arrived at the hill, and there in front of him was a group of prophets, the Spirit of God fell on him and he prophesied along with them.
  3. Standard memberRemoved
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    16 May '16 14:17
    Commentary from the REV
    “as yet there was no spirit.” The Greek text says “…for as yet there was no Spirit….” God’s gift of holy spirit existed in the Old Testament, as many verses show (cp. Num. 11:17-29; Judges 3:10; etc.), so why does John 7:39 say there was no spirit? As part of the New Covenant, God promised to give a new spirit to His people, and in this verse John is explaining that Jesus was referring to that new holy spirit that God promised as part of the New Covenant and Christ’s Millennial Kindom on earth. John 7:39 shows that the gift of holy spirit in the Millennial Kingdom, which Christ knew about and understood, was going to be so completely different from the gift of holy spirit that God put upon people in the Old Testament that John could rightly say the promised holy spirit did not exist yet.

    By God’s grace, Christians have today what Jesus spoke about and what was promised to Israel. The obvious presence of holy spirit in the Old Testament along with theologians not realizing that this “spirit” that Jesus spoke of in John 7:39 was different from the holy spirit that God gave to beleivers before the Day of Pentecost had a serious consequence. Wanting John 7:39 to “make sense,” the men who copied the biblical text added to this verse as they copied it. Therefore, among the thousands of Greek texts in existence, there are several different later renditions, among them that the spirit “was not yet given,” “was not yet upon them,” and “not yet came.” [For more information on the various ways this verse appears in the Greek manuscripts, see Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 218.

    The Old Testament prophets had foretold that a new spirit was coming in the future, one that was different from the spirit God gave in Old Testament times. It was foretold to come as part of the Messianic Kingdom and the New Covenant that God would make with Israel (Isa. 32:15-18; 44:3-5; Ezek. 11:17-21; 36:26, 27; Joel 2:28, 29). The Old Testament prophets and Jesus foretold the coming of this new spirit, saying it would be “poured out” (i.e., given in fullness) into all the believers (Ezek. 39:29; Joel 2:28, 29). Jesus knew that it would come before his kingdom, perhaps to help believers to endure the Great Tribulation (John 15:26-16:16).

    Although the Christian Church was a sacred secret, hidden in God and not foretold in the Old Testament, God has given the Christian Church the gift of holy spirit that He promised to give in the Millennial Kingdom. Thus in Acts and the Church Epistles this new holy spirit is sometimes referred to as “the promised holy spirit (Eph. 1:13; cp. Acts 2:33; Rom. 8:23).

    When a person believes Jesus Christ is Lord, he is “born again” (1 Pet. 1:3, 23; Titus 3:5; James 1:18), and what gets born inside the Christian is this new gift of holy spirit. [For more on the holy spirit and new birth, see Appendix 1, “The Permanence of Christian Salvation”].


    http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter7/39
  4. Standard membersonship
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    16 May '16 14:187 edits
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    John 7: 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    When Jesus died and the Holy Spirit came this indwelling of the Spirit ...[text shortened]... of him was a group of prophets, the Spirit of God fell on him and he prophesied along with them.
    So the discussion begins.

    Let me first give you the translation in a few Bibles for your consideration.

    The Emphasized Bible - J.B. Rotherham, Kregel Publications

    "Now this spake he concerning the Spirit which they who believed on him were abut to receive; for not yet was there Spirit, because Jesus not yet was glorified." (John 7:39)


    Notice this Greek translator give us "for not yet was there Spirit".

    Though he may agree that "given" should be understood though not in the language for in his footnote he says -

    That is, as an imparted gift


    So I guess I could not make too much of the Emphasized Bible's rendering. But I like it. It is subjective -- " for not yet [experientially] was there Spirit"

    Young Literal Translation gives us the sentence absent the editorially supplied given as well:

    " and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified."


    But you are right that many English translations have "given" or "bestowed" or "received". Some use italics to indicate the editorially supplied word and some do not.

    John Nelson Darby's New Translation omits the supplied given
    Incidentally, Darby's notes were what C.I. Scofield incorporated in his Bible which became the Scofield Reference Bible, which is essentially the text of the Bible with Plymouth Brethren theological study notes.

    " But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."


    My bolding.

    GOD"S WORD a translation has an interesting rendering I would consider a paraphrase:

    "Jesus said this about the Spirit, whom his believers would receive. The Spirit was not yet evident, as it would be after Jesus had been glorified."


    "Evident" is supplied.

    A couple of more versions -

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    He said this about the Spirit. Those who believed in Jesus were going to receive the Spirit, for the Spirit had not yet been received because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    International Standard Version
    Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who were believing in him were to receive, because the Spirit was not yet present and Jesus had not yet been glorified.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    16 May '16 14:232 edits
    Lastly for this post let me give my favorite - The Recovery Version John 7:37-39 - with my bolding

    " Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

    But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."


    The Spirit that John speaks of was not yet in existence. The Spirit did not yet contain the man Jesus of Nazareth and His humanity. Though the Spirit of God was in Genesis hovering over God's creation and though we are told that the Spirit is eternal in Hebrews 9:11 - this is the Spirit of God with the ingredient of God's divinity only.

    The Spirit of the glorified MAN - Jesus was not yet until Jesus entered into resurrection. In resurrection Jesus entered into His glory.

    " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory ? " (Luke 24:26)


    The MAN - born as a human a God-man - Jesus was now included in the eternal Spirit. So in this way as "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) also "the last Adam BECAME ... a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 May '16 14:31
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    John 7: 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    When Jesus died and the Holy Spirit came this indwelling of the Spirit ...[text shortened]... of him was a group of prophets, the Spirit of God fell on him and he prophesied along with them.
    I would go with sonships view that the core disciples received the HS before the Day of Pentecost and many more, by the thousands received it on the actual day.

    It is interesting to note a couple related points that many Christians seem to ignore:

    1. That the record in Acts state that there were people from ALL NATIONS UNDER HEAVEN, by the thousands who were given the HS and were commissioned to preach the very same way Paul did. Paul, Peter, James, John etc were not the only one sent out to preach to the Gentiles.

    2. Only a certain specially chosen group of people were given this commission... certainly not everyone that happened to be around, neither is it just anyone that claimed to believe in Christ but rather .. devout men out of every nation .."
  7. Standard membersonship
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    16 May '16 14:56
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I don't like the way this article fails to differentiate between the Spirit Who is God and the human spirit. The Spirit as He is God Himself should be capitalized.

    “as yet there was no spirit.” The Greek text says “…for as yet there was no Spirit….” God’s gift of holy spirit existed in the Old Testament, as many verses show (cp. Num. 11:17-29; Judges 3:10; etc.), [/b]


    Actually the term "Holy Spirit" is not used at all in the Old Testament.

    We have perhaps once or more "the Spirit of His holiness".

    And the Spirit, the divine Spirit of God brooding over the face of the waters in Genesis 1:2 we really cannot say is a gift. Man does not exist yet. That is therefore just God the Spirit.

    The term "Holy Spirit" is first used in the Bible in connection to the birth of Jesus. When God becomes a man in the conception within Mary, we have the first mention in the Bible of the title "the Holy Spirit"

    In his book "The Spirit of Christ" Andrew Murray explains this in the chapter "The Spirit of the Glorified Jesus"

    Jesus, the glorified man was added or compounded into the eternal Spirit. The Holy Spirit today is like a compound containing not only the divinity of God but the human life, living, death and resurrection of the man Jesus.

    This Spirit was not yet until Jesus was resurrected, entering into His glory as the resurrected God-man whose whole being is now made available to be our life and indwell the lovers of Jesus.

    Witness Lee explains Murray's understanding of the NT (and Lee's own)

    At the beginning of the New Testament, we see the Holy Spirit, but He was still not yet "the Spirit." This is unveiled in John 7:39, which says, "The Spirit was not yet." The Spirit was not yet because Jesus in His humanity had not yet been glorified. Because Jesus in His humanity had not yet been changed, the Holy Spirit who brought forth Jesus through His conception and birth still remained the same, without change. It was not until Jesus was resurrected into His glory, that "the Spirit" who shall flow out of the believers as rivers of living water began to exist. This truth is a big "missing" among Christians today. Andrew Murray said that when "the Spirit" came into existence, this was a "new era," a new age. He had the boldness to say that humanity had been constituted into the Spirit. From the time of Christ's resurrection, whatever has been constituted and wrought into Christ has been consummated in the Spirit. Today the Spirit of God is "the Spirit" who flows out of the believers in Christ as rivers of living water.

    First Corinthians 15:45b says, "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit." This is another "missing" among today's Christians. The last Adam was Jesus in the flesh. He lived in the flesh for thirty-three and a half years. Then through resurrection, He changed by becoming a life-giving Spirit. This word became in Greek is the same word used in John 1:14: "The Word became flesh." Thus, the Spirit changed from the Spirit of God to the Spirit who gives life, the life-giving Spirit. First Corinthians 15:45 is a great verse in the Bible. Today some in Christianity pay much attention to John 1:14, but they do not see that the last Adam, who was flesh, became something further. In the first step, He was the Word becoming flesh. In the second step, He was the flesh becoming the life-giving Spirit. We have to see this.


    From The Spirit with Our spirit by Witness Lee
    http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=080B2D54FF
  8. Standard membersonship
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    16 May '16 15:141 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Commentary from the REV
    “as yet there was no spirit.” The Greek text says “…for as yet there was no Spirit….” God’s gift of holy spirit existed in the Old Testament, as many verses show (cp. Num. 11:17-29; Judges 3:10; etc.), so why does John 7:39 say there was no spirit? As part of the New Covenant, God promised to give a new spirit to His peopl ...[text shortened]... nence of Christian Salvation”].


    http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter7/39
    God promised to give a new spirit to His people, and in this verse John is explaining that Jesus was referring to that new holy spirit that God promised as part of the New Covenant and Christ’s Millennial Kindom on earth. John 7:39 shows that the gift of holy spirit in the Millennial Kingdom, which Christ knew about and understood, was going to be so completely different from the gift of holy spirit that God put upon people in the Old Testament that John could rightly say the promised holy spirit did not exist yet.


    Why does not the article capitalize Holy Spirit ?

    The Spirit that Jesus promised would come to the disciples was HIMSELF coming to the disciples in another form. He sends the Spirit. And in their receiving of the Spirit they receive HIM [Jesus].

    This bears repeating again:

    " ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him,

    because He abides with you and shall be in you.

    I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (See John 14:17,18)


    This Person dwells WITH the disciples. In fact He had been WITH them for three and one half years.

    He was about to take the step from being WITH them to being IN them. For this "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit. " (1 Cor. 15:45) .

    In resurrection He not only physically rose from the dead, He was transfigured into "a life giving Spirit" to transition from being among them to being IN them.

    " ... He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."


    The MAN, the God-Man who had done something previously not accomplished on earth, lived as God in flesh, transfigured Himself and brought all of His humanity and human living into the eternal Spirit to not leave the disciples as orphans but to come to them to indwell them.

    Why are the Christians shy to proclaim that the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit? The New Testament proclaims it.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 May '16 15:20
    Originally posted by sonship
    I don't like the way this article fails to differentiate between the Spirit Who is God and the human spirit. The Spirit as He is God Himself should be capitalized.

    [quote] “as yet there was no spirit.” The Greek text says “…for as yet there was no Spirit….” God’s gift of holy spirit existed in the Old Testament, as many verses show (cp. Num. 11:17-29; J ...[text shortened]... Our spirit
    by Witness Lee
    http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=080B2D54FF[/b]
    Listen, I don't want to read a book if you have a point to make say it.
    I'm also not overly concern about parsing some meaning in how a verse was translated
    to pull something out of it that isn't really clear because of how it was stated in English.

    Be plain, be concise, be specific and I'll continue the discussion if not we can just agree
    we may not see things the same way.
  10. Standard memberRemoved
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    16 May '16 15:23
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] God promised to give a new spirit to His people, and in this verse John is explaining that Jesus was referring to that new holy spirit that God promised as part of the New Covenant and Christ’s Millennial Kindom on earth. John 7:39 shows that the gift of holy spirit in the Millennial Kingdom, which Christ knew about and understood, was going to be s ...[text shortened]... proclaim that [b]the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit? The New Testament proclaims it.[/b]
    It is not capitalized because it is the "gift" of holy spirit. You fail to see this because of your Trinity belief.
    I believe that Holy Spirit is another name for God who is holy and He is spirit.
    The term holy spirit refers to God's gift which is an "it" not a person. This gift is what enables a Christian to hear from God and Jesus. This gift is what empowers the Christian with it's 9 manifestations.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 May '16 15:491 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    I don't like the way this article fails to differentiate between the Spirit Who is God and the human spirit. The Spirit as He is God Himself should be capitalized.

    [quote] “as yet there was no spirit.” The Greek text says “…for as yet there was no Spirit….” God’s gift of holy spirit existed in the Old Testament, as many verses show (cp. Num. 11:17-29; J ...[text shortened]... Our spirit
    by Witness Lee
    http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=080B2D54FF[/b]
    "Actually the term "Holy Spirit" is not used at all in the Old Testament. "

    Languages were different between when the OT and NT when written so I can imagine
    that the translations would/could be different.
    Even when the time and languages are the same a person, place, event could have a
    different names for the same thing. Spirit of God and Holy Spirit you think are not the
    same?
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 May '16 15:59
    Originally posted by sonship
    The word given in the KJV is supplied by the translators in [b]John 7:39. It does not appear in the original language. And the RcV translates verse 39 as "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

    I have never discussed this before, I don't think, on this Forum. The time has come examine this with some of you ...[text shortened]... Spirit was not yet ?

    2.) What does it mean that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit ?[/b]
    Adam was never a life giving "Spirit", the correct way for that to translated would be "spirit".

    What translation was that pulled out of?
  13. Standard membersonship
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    16 May '16 16:351 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    "Actually the term "Holy Spirit" is not used at all in the Old Testament. "

    Languages were different between when the OT and NT when written so I can imagine
    that the translations would/could be different.
    Even when the time and languages are the same a person, place, event could have a
    different names for the same thing. Spirit of God and Holy Spirit you think are not the
    same?
    Spirit of God and Holy Spirit you think are not the
    same?


    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God with the man Jesus compounded into the Spirit.

    There are two great BECAMES in the economical move of God's full plan salvation.

    The first great BECAME is when God became manifested in the flesh - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (John 1:14).

    The second great BECAME is when Christ in resurrection became compounded into the Divine Spirit Who is God to include His humanity and human living - [b]"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)


    The first BECAME was a stumbling block to those who could not believe that God became a man.

    The second BECAME has become stumbling block to some people who cannot believe that the Man became the Spirit to give us Himself - to give life.

    It is the Apostle Paul who told us that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" .

    It is the New Testament revelation that tells us both - that the "Word became flesh" and that "the Last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b) .

    The early people of God had difficulty believing the incarnation of God the Word as a man.

    The latter people of God have difficulty believing that that resurrected man, the last Adam, became a life imparting Holy Spirit.

    No the Holy Spirit is not another Spirit. But I would say that the eternal Spirit of God previously was just of God's divine nature. After the last Adam became a life giving Spirit, the Holy Spirit was compounded with the Nazarene, the man Jesus including all that He attained, obtained, and went through.

    He has been made available to every man by means of Him becoming compounded into the eternal Spirit of the divine God. He became the available life giving "pneumatic" Christ in order that God may dispense this Man into us.

    There are not two Spirits. There is the compound Holy Spirit containing since the resurrection the man Jesus.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 May '16 16:38
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    It is not capitalized because it is the "gift" of holy spirit. You fail to see this because of your Trinity belief.
    I believe that Holy Spirit is another name for God who is holy and He is spirit.
    The term holy spirit refers to God's gift which is an "it" not a person. This gift is what enables a Christian to hear from God and Jesus. This gift is what empowers the Christian with it's 9 manifestations.
    So this means what:

    1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    The three are God, Christ and God?
  15. Standard membersonship
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    16 May '16 17:093 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    It is not capitalized because it is the "gift" of holy spirit.

    It should be capitalized in those instances where a distinction is understood between the human spirit and the Spirit Who is God.

    Of course in the NT at certain places it is not easy to tell because the two spirits have been joined as ONE -

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)


    Even in the OT the human spirit is seen as distinct from the Spirit of God. For example God formed a [human] spirit within man on the created earth -

    " The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel, Thus declares Jehovah,

    who streches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." (Zech. 12:1)


    That is the small s spirit of man - the human spirit formed within man. It is the highest component of the human being. Man not yet receiving the Holy Spirit has the human spirit formed within him.

    Elsewhere in the Old Testament we see that the spirit of man is the lamp of God.

    " The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being." (Proverbs 20:27)


    Before being born again man has the spirit within him which is like a lamp of Jehovah. It searches his innermost parts. This probably relates to the conscience of man illuminating for God and man the motives of the soul, the thoughts and intentions of the mind, and the choosings of the human will.

    This human spirit was not that capital S Spirit of God brooding over the surface of the deep ready to bring forth life in Genesis.

    " But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the surface of the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and there was light." (Gen. 1:2,3)


    In the New Covenant the Spirit Who is by then the Spirit of the born man, the resurrected and glorified man Jesus is ready to GIVE LIFE to man. That Spirit Who gives divine life is Christ in His pneumatic form.

    " the last Adam BECAME ... a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)


    Experientially, the Christian cannot detect any difference between the Three of the Trinity. So in his "shot talk" Paul interchangeably uses different titles to mean the same Divine Person of the Trinity.

    The following passage is not a dogmatic doctrinal formula. It is "shop talk" meaning it is a talking with taking for granted that the hearers are in the experience of the Person and understand what Paul is saying. It is not a creedal formula. It is however experiencial speaking which Paul takes for granted his audience understands.

    " But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
    But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.

    And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:9-11)


    The Spirit of God is here the Spirit of Christ.
    The Spirit of God (the Spirit of Christ) is Christ.
    The Spirit of God (the Spirit of Christ, Christ) is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

    Moving in the other direction -

    The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead is Christ.
    The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead (Christ) is the Spirit of Christ.
    The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead (Christ, the Spirit of Christ) is the Spirit of God.

    Subjectively and inwardly Christ cannot be separated from the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.

    He is distinct or Paul would not use two terms. But there is no separation.
    Paul moves seamlessly from one label to the other assuming that the hearers know what he is speaking of.
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