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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member dj2becker
    rentrer à la maison
    22 Feb '18 12:40 / 2 edits
    Was he saved by faith, works or both? I imagine Rajk is going to shy away from this one because it blows his entire saved by works doctrine out of the water.
  2. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    22 Feb '18 12:58
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    Was he saved by faith, works or both? I imagine Rajk is going to shy away from this one because it blows his entire saved by works doctrine out of the water.
    Nonsense. You have been told before that Jesus saved the thief on the cross because ... read it ... read it over and over ...

    HIS HEART WAS RIGHT WITH GOD. Had he lived Jesus knew he would have lived a good and righteous life. Hence he went to paradise with Christ.

    Professions of faith saves nobody. Professions of faith + obedience to God = eternal life
    Faith alone is DEAD

    Professions of faith should lead to good works and righteousness but it does not always happen because the faith of some people are dead ... DEAD.

    Its the same with all professions of faith prior to death. Some are genuine and some are fake. Only Jesus knows which is which and therefore only Jesus can judge these things. You cannot, the pastor cannot. .. only Jesus Christ.

    For you to start a whole thread just for this demonstrates how false your doctrine is.
  3. Standard member dj2becker
    rentrer à la maison
    22 Feb '18 13:16 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Nonsense. You have been told before that Jesus saved the thief on the cross because ... read it ... read it over and over ...

    HIS HEART WAS RIGHT WITH GOD. Had he lived Jesus knew he would have lived a good and righteous life. Hence he went to paradise with Christ.

    Professions of faith saves nobody. Professions of faith + obedience to God = etern ...[text shortened]... hrist.

    For you to start a whole thread just for this demonstrates how false your doctrine is.
    Only Jesus knows which is which and therefore only Jesus can judge these things. You cannot, the pastor cannot. .. only Jesus Christ.

    You on the other hand don't seem to have a problem judging. How do you know whether or not someone's profession of faith is genuine? And you haven't answered the question of the OP. Was his heart right with God due to his good works or was it because of his genuine faith and repentance?

    By the way no one has ever claimed that simply a profession of faith saves us. You seem to be the only one claiming that we claim that even if we never have.
  4. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    22 Feb '18 13:38
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    By the way no one has ever claimed that simply a profession of faith saves us.
    What is it that you have "claimed" by citing the story of the "thief on the cross"?
  5. Standard member menace71
    Can't win a game of
    22 Feb '18 14:23
    Maybe God in His supreme sovereignty decided to save the thief on the cross and show us His gracious mercy ? You think? The man was a thief that in and of itself proves that the thief was not a perfect righteous man. The thief however recognized that Jesus was Righteous and believed what Jesus was saying.
    Manny
  6. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    22 Feb '18 15:26
    Originally posted by @fmf
    What is it that you have "claimed" by citing the story of the "thief on the cross"?
    There is a vast difference between a profession of faith and believing in something in your heart.

    The Lord looks on the heart and by telling the thief that the thief would be with Him in paradise, the Lord obviously knew the thief’s profession of faith followed a belief in the heart and was not simply what rajk refers to as “mouth worship.”
  7. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    22 Feb '18 15:29
    Originally posted by @menace71
    Maybe God in His supreme sovereignty decided to save the thief on the cross and show us His gracious mercy ? You think? The man was a thief that in and of itself proves that the thief was not a perfect righteous man. The thief however recognized that Jesus was Righteous and believed what Jesus was saying.
    Manny
    God also showed His gracious mercy by using Saul of Tarsus (later renamed Paul,) one of the worst persecutors of early Christians, to carry His Gospel to the Gentiles.
  8. Standard member dj2becker
    rentrer à la maison
    22 Feb '18 15:44 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @fmf
    What is it that you have "claimed" by citing the story of the "thief on the cross"?
    Confessing with your mouth is obviously not sufficient, you have to believe in your heart as well. Truly believing in your heart leads to genuine remorse for your sins and sincere repentance which leads to being born again. God in his mercy removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. This is the miracle of salvation.
  9. 22 Feb '18 16:36 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    Confessing with your mouth is obviously not sufficient, you have to believe in your heart as well. Truly believing in your heart leads to genuine remorse for your sins and sincere repentance which leads to being born again. God in his mercy removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. This is the miracle of salvation.
    Truly believing in your heart leads to genuine remorse for your sins and sincere repentance which leads to being born again.

    Actually "sincere repentance" leads to no longer committing sin which is synonymous with being "born again". Anything less than this is not "sincere repentance".

    Many are easily deluded into believing that "sincere repentance" is something less than this because it is a self-serving belief.

    "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

    Repent and believe in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. The vast majority of Christians believe in a gospel that is different from the one preached by Jesus.
  10. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    22 Feb '18 18:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    [b]Truly believing in your heart leads to genuine remorse for your sins and sincere repentance which leads to being born again.

    Actually "sincere repentance" leads to no longer committing sin which is synonymous with being "born again". Anything less than this is not "sincere repentance".

    Many are easily deluded into believing that "sincere re ...[text shortened]... ast majority of Christians believe in a gospel that is different from the one preached by Jesus.[/b]
    Do you believe Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God?

    Do you believe He was crucified for the sins of mankind and was Resurrected?

    Do you believe He performed miracles during His ministry?

    Do you believe He identified Himself as God?

    I don’t expect you to answer any of these questions, as I’ve asked them before and you’ve ignored them.

    But if your answer to the questions is “No,” and you believe Jesus was just a man and wise teacher, on what authority did he have to tell other people how to obtain salvation? Why believe what he said and not what Paul or the Gospel writers said?
  11. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    22 Feb '18 19:06
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Do you believe Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God?

    Do you believe He was crucified for the sins of mankind and was Resurrected?

    Do you believe He performed miracles during His ministry?

    Do you believe He identified Himself as God?

    I don’t expect you to answer any of these questions, as I’ve asked them before and you’ve ignored them.

    But if ...[text shortened]... how to obtain salvation? Why believe what he said and not what Paul or the Gospel writers said?
    BTW, what Jesus and Paul said is consistent; I was asking that last question from your vantage point.

    Jesus spoke more of how people ought to behave because that message was in contradiction to so much of what the Pharisees were teaching, and His sacrificial death and Resurrection hadn’t happened nor, consequently, was the New Covenant in effect yet.
  12. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    22 Feb '18 19:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    BTW, what Jesus and Paul said is consistent; I was asking that last question from your vantage point.

    Jesus spoke more of how people ought to behave because that message was in contradiction to so much of what the Pharisees were teaching, and His sacrificial death and Resurrection hadn’t happened nor, consequently, was the New Covenant in effect yet.
    Well, Paul taught believers were eternally secure, while Jesus taught insecurity to a sinning believer.

    Tremble at Mat.7:19. :

    “Every tree that lacks good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.”
  13. 22 Feb '18 20:05 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Well, Paul taught believers were eternally secure, while Jesus taught insecurity to a sinning believer.

    Tremble at Mat.7:19. :

    “Every tree that lacks good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.”
    How does that analogy translate to — if you are saved but don’t do enough good works I’ll burn you for eternity?
  14. 22 Feb '18 20:42 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Do you believe Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God?

    Do you believe He was crucified for the sins of mankind and was Resurrected?

    Do you believe He performed miracles during His ministry?

    Do you believe He identified Himself as God?

    I don’t expect you to answer any of these questions, as I’ve asked them before and you’ve ignored them.

    But if ...[text shortened]... how to obtain salvation? Why believe what he said and not what Paul or the Gospel writers said?
    But if your answer to the questions is “No,” and you believe Jesus was just a man and wise teacher, on what authority did he have to tell other people how to obtain salvation?

    See Luke 4. At the beginning of His ministry, Jesus proclaims the purpose for which He was anointed. The purpose for which He is the Christ. He also subsequently spent quite a bit of time addressing your question.

    You need to ask these questions? You obviously haven't been reading my posts - even though you respond to them. Have you actually read the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry?

    Why believe what he said and not what Paul or the Gospel writers said?

    See Matthew 7. Jesus' warning against false prophets would include everyone who continues to commit sin. If you believe that it's impossible for any human to no longer commit sin, it would therefore include any and all of the writers of the NT.

    You obviously haven't thought this through.
  15. 22 Feb '18 20:43 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    BTW, what Jesus and Paul said is consistent; I was asking that last question from your vantage point.

    Jesus spoke more of how people ought to behave because that message was in contradiction to so much of what the Pharisees were teaching, and His sacrificial death and Resurrection hadn’t happened nor, consequently, was the New Covenant in effect yet.
    BTW, what Jesus and Paul said is consistent;

    Then there's reality.

    His sacrificial death and Resurrection hadn’t happened nor, consequently, was the New Covenant in effect yet.

    The New Covenant was in effect with Jesus' preaching of His gospel during His ministry. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry IS the New Covenant.