Originally posted by @romans1009This is, for all intents and purpose, the same deceit/delusion that sustains Scientology.
As an atheist, you are the “natural man” referred to in 1 Corinthians 2:14 and lack the knowledge and discernment to understand spiritual matters. That’s not a put-down; it’s just reality. How can s carnally-minded person understand spiritual matters? They’re two separate planes.
Originally posted by @fmfWhen you say "for all intents and purposes", all I hear is "not exactly". You have shown, repeatedly on these forums, a marked inability to understand nearly everything normal people understand.
This is, for all intents and purpose, the same deceit/delusion that sustains Scientology.
What he wrote has absolutely ZERO to do with Scientology, and is, perhaps, the worst and most desperate attempt I've ever seen, even from you, to tar him with the same brush. If you want to call it deceit/delusion, go ahead, it's nothing we haven't heard from you before. But to call it equal to Scientology is a new low, even for you.
Originally posted by @suzianneIt's the same kind of psychological note-to-self that creates the partisan and excluding 'special knowledge' that makes Scientology work for its adherents.
When you say "for all intents and purposes", all I hear is "not exactly". You have shown, repeatedly on these forums, a marked inability to understand nearly everything normal people understand.
What he wrote has absolutely ZERO to do with Scientology, and is, perhaps, the worst and most desperate attempt I've ever seen, even from you, to tar him with ...[text shortened]... haven't heard from you before. But to call it equal to Scientology is a new low, even for you.
Originally posted by @fmfLet's not be obtuse here.
This is, for all intents and purpose, the same deceit/delusion that sustains Scientology.
Christianity is totally transparent and presents the Gospel universally and completely. There is no esoteric knowledge or secretive practices.
Paul notes in that passage that some people just do not understand the spiritual gifts that there are out there because they are only understandable if one attempts to understand them from the spiritual eye.
In a roundabout way, Paul is calling them obtuse.
Which is probably not an inaccurate description of the attitude that you take towards a lot of content and posters here. This isn't meant to cut you down, but it is meant to be a relevant critique of your posting style.
Ummm... I think what would benefit you would be to totally revamp your posting style! Stop asking pestering questions and engaging in petty guerrilla warfare on others content and starting constructing beautiful, long, volptuous posts and content of your own and open up your HEART!
It'd be great. I bet you would do well since you are such a smart guy and a good writer.
Originally posted by @philokaliaI'm not being obtuse. Romans1009's belief in God is a belief in supernatural causality. This belief of his does not grant him access to "wisdom" or "knowledge" or some kind of imagined 'plane of human consciousness' that is somehow unavailable to people like Ghost of a Duke who do not believe in supernatural causality. It's a delusion on the part of religious people. Any religious people.
Let's not be obtuse here.
Originally posted by @dj2beckerWhat did he steal? the rights of the kings? the hearts of the righteous souls who were made to b wicked to fit amongst society 's rules?
Was he saved by faith, works or both? I imagine Rajk is going to shy away from this one because it blows his entire saved by works doctrine out of the water.
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Originally posted by @romans1009You need to understand the entire passage. Keep reading through 6:63.
I understand what you’re saying and appreciate your taking the time to say it; I just think you have to disregard too much of the New Testament - including verses in John chapter 6 - for it to be accurate.
Jesus refers to Himself as God and the Messiah, says He came down from heaven, says He is giving His life for the world, says to believe in Him for ...[text shortened]... ife, sustaining the Jews (and Gentiles) of the 1st century (and obviously subsequent centuries.)
The Jews were confused by what Jesus was saying just as you are, so Jesus rephrased it:
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
After all this, even His disciples still didn't understand what Jesus was saying:
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
So Jesus explained the metaphor to them:
61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
In 6:52-58 Jesus equates "eating flesh" and "drinking blood" to "life".
In 6:61-63 Jesus also equates "the words that I have spoken to you" to "life"
Therefore "eating flesh"/"drinking blood" and "the words that I have spoken to you" are equivalent expressions that equate to "life".
Please take the time to actually sit down with this so that you can fully understand what Jesus is saying in this passage. It may take several passes. If you need more help, just ask.
John 6:56 also has links to passages in John 8 and John 15 which I can explain later that have to do with "abiding in His words".
Try to also keep in mind the metaphor that Jesus IS "the word of God". So "eating His flesh" and "drinking His blood" ARE "eating" and "drinking" God's words, just as "the words I have spoken to you" are God's words. Everything lines up and makes perfect sense once you understand the metaphors. It's really marvelously constructed.
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Originally posted by @philokaliaNo matter how sincere or certain or strident a religious person is about the existence of "spiritual gifts that there are out there", it does not mean that these "gifts" exist in any form other than as items of doctrine and mythology, and for sure, the retort that non-believers "just do not understand" this 'special knowledge' is very weak indeed.
Paul notes in that passage that some people just do not understand the spiritual gifts that there are out there because they are only understandable if one attempts to understand them from the spiritual eye.
Religious people asserting that they have equipped themselves with "the spiritual eye" is evidence of absolutely nothing other than of how sincere or certain or strident those religious people are, and ~ rather ludicrously ~ how they have convinced themselves that they operate on a 'different plane' as a direct result of these things that just so happen to appeal to their imagination.
Originally posted by @fmfAnd how would you know this? You don’t acknowledge God exists and a spiritual realm exists so how could you possibly understand matters pertaining to them? Your mind is closed and your heart is stone; to understand God and the spiritual realm, you need to humble yourself, open your mind and open your heart.
I'm not being obtuse. Romans1009's belief in God is a belief in supernatural causality. This belief of his does not grant him access to "wisdom" or "knowledge" or some kind of imagined 'plane of human consciousness' that is somehow unavailable to people like Ghost of a Duke who do not believe in supernatural causality. It's a delusion on the part of religious people. Any religious people.
Originally posted by @fmfLet's put it this way...
I'm not being obtuse. Romans1009's belief in God is a belief in supernatural causality. This belief of his does not grant him access to "wisdom" or "knowledge" or some kind of imagined 'plane of human consciousness' that is somehow unavailable to people like Ghost of a Duke who do not believe in supernatural causality. It's a delusion on the part of religious people. Any religious people.
I am not a Buddhist. But when I hear about how a Buddhist master or practitioner can gain special insight into certain values within Buddhism, I do not question the basis of this. It is entirely logical.
Somebody whose heart is open to Buddhist precepts and meditates upon them, as well as actively seeks understanding in them, will have a cultivated concept of what it means. For that exact reason, both you & I would agree that a veteran Buddhist practitioner would be the proper person to consult on such a topic...
What Christianity is saying here is something very common in every kind of religious texts. For instance, there is the famous passage in the Tao Teh Ching where it talks about the reaction to the Tao of the wise man, the normal man, and the fool.
The Dharmapada Sutra says this:
Though a fool lives with a wise man through all his life, he never understands the Dharma, just as a spoon never knows the taste of soup.
These are very, very common claims about the Truth.
It goes to the idea of boiling things down all the way. Some people, at the end of the day, even though they may be entirely functional and even intelligent, just don't have the wisdom necessary to grasp these things and are foolish.
We can only consider it a fundamental failure.
Originally posted by @fmfThis is all opinion - and very uninformed opinion at that.
I'm not being obtuse. Romans1009's belief in God is a belief in supernatural causality. This belief of his does not grant him access to "wisdom" or "knowledge" or some kind of imagined 'plane of human consciousness' that is somehow unavailable to people like Ghost of a Duke who do not believe in supernatural causality. It's a delusion on the part of religious people. Any religious people.
If God is a Spirit (and He is,) it only makes sense that a human being can only relate to Him on a spiritual level.
Yes, God walked the earth in bodily form, or in the flesh, to teach man and to save man, but that was not His natural state.
You’re like a blind man claiming colors don’t exist because you can’t see them.
Originally posted by @philokaliaYour religious beliefs haven't created a different level of human consciousness. It is simply stuff that you have rote-learned, internalized and that you propagate with earnestness and conviction.
Let's put it this way...
I am not a Buddhist. But when I hear about how a Buddhist master or practitioner can gain special insight into certain values within Buddhism, I do not question the basis of this. It is entirely logical.
Somebody whose heart is open to Buddhist precepts and meditates upon them, as well as actively seeks understanding in t ...[text shortened]... ary to grasp these things and are foolish.[/i]
We can only consider it a fundamental failure.
People who rote-learned your dogma and propagated it accurately could so so without believing it. They might even end up with more knowledge than you about the dogma you subscribe to. But so what?
Such knowledge does not create a higher plane of consciousness that someone can reach and then operate upon. Speculating about supernatural things does not conjure those supernatural things into existence. Nor does it grant you access to supernatural information that is inaccessible to others.