The Triune God in John 16

Originally posted by gswilm
I am eager to get home to continue the talk. But I think we should both pray that it would be productive.

I surely agree with you that God should be praised for being UNE in triUNE. But along with praising Him for His "UNENESS" I also praise Him for His "TRIness."

You see if He were not TRI in TRIUNE He would never have said that [b]"We will come to ...[text shortened]... tant praises that God is triune. How vital this is to perfecting the saints on earth.

sonship

So much error in one post 😞

Originally posted by divegeester
So much error in one post 😞

There are no errors other than the typos it took me a few minutes to fix.

Of the divine "We" of the Father and the Son in John 14:23 which one of the Two is not God ?

Of the divine 'Us" of the Father and the Son in John 17:21 which one of the Two is not God ?

If you say both of the "We" are God, being the Father and the Son, then the truth of the Trinity is upheld. If you say that both of the "Us" are God, being the Father and the Son, then the truth of the Trinity is upheld.

And if you say this is an obfuscating or a hairbrush question, that makes no sense to me. And the truth of the Triune God is still upheld.

Originally posted by sonship
There are no errors other than the typos it took me a few minutes to fix.

Of the divine [b]"We" of the Father and the Son in John 14:23 which one of the Two is not God ?

Of the divine 'Us" of the Father and the Son in John 17:21 which one of the Two is not God ?

If you say both of the "We" are God, being the Father ...[text shortened]... hairbrush question, that makes no sense to me. And the truth of the Triune God is still upheld.[/b]

Hear oh Israel (that includes you sonship), the Lord your god is ONE.

Originally posted by divegeester
Hear oh Israel (that includes you sonship), the Lord your god is ONE.

So the Lord God is one and both the Father and the Son of the divine "We" of John 14:23 are God.

That is what upholds the revelation of the Triune God.

So the Lord God is one and both the Father and the Son of the divine "Us" are God in John 17:21. That is what I thought. So the truth of the Trinity is upheld.

Originally posted by sonship
So the Lord God is one and both the Father and the Son of the divine [b]"We" of John 14:23 are God.

That is what upholds the revelation of the Triune God.

So the Lord God is one and both the Father and the Son of the divine "Us" are God in John 17:21. That is what I thought. So the truth of the Trinity is upheld.[/b]

Listen - please - just watch my lips (metaphorically speaking) I've been over this time and time and time again...

In the Bible it says many many times that the Lord is ONE.

It NEVER, not once, says the Lord is three, triple, triune, trinity. NEVER.

Therefore the start point in doctrine is that he is ONE entity.

I can't be any clearer than this - if you choose error and choose to wrap that error up in your complicated mumbo-jumbo about THREE people in one person then feel free to go ahead. I shall be free to keep calling you out over it.

Edit: furthermore if you or anyone else can't understand how the ONE God of all the universe cannot be in two places at the same time - then you need to have a word with yourself because this is basic stuff.

The start point is the the Lord of Israel is ONE. Do not depart from that truth.

(apologies for the edits)

Originally posted by divegeester
Listen - please - just watch my lips (metaphorically speaking) I've been over this time and time and time again...

In the Bible it says many many times that the Lord is [b]ONE.

It NEVER, not once, says the Lord is three, triple, triune, trinity. NEVER.

Therefore the start point in doctrine is that he is ONE entity.

I ...[text shortened]... he the Lord of Israel is ONE. Do not depart from that truth.

(apologies for the edits)[/b]

Does the pronoun "We" refer to more than one person ? (See John 14:23) .

We should not be selective or over bias about the plenary revelation of the Scripture.
We should be all-inclusive.

And if being all-inclusive causes us some difficulties to our limited reasoning ability, we should not suppress the statements of Scripture for that reason. Christians should not in favor of exalting our limited mentality over highly, suppress the words of the Bible.

I reserve the right to believe that the Lord is one AND that the Father and the Son are the divine "We".

Originally posted by divegeester

The start point is the the Lord of Israel is ONE. Do not depart from that truth.

But in John 16 this God has an operation to b embodied in the Son and convey the riches of what He is through the Spirit.

" All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He [the Holy Spirit] receives of Mine and will disclose it to you." (John 16:15)

We should see here that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are involved in an impartation of the riches of God into man. For this God is a Trinity.

All that the Father has is the Sons.
Yet the Father and the Son exist simultaneously.

What the Son has therefore is transmitted to God's people through the Spirit.
And the Son and the Spirit exist simultaneously.

Father - Son - Holy Spirit exist simultaneously and concurrently.

An analogy is like the power plant, the electric cables, and the flow of the electric current.

The power plant is the source.
The cables connecting the power plant to the homes is the course.
The voltage of the electricity flowing the power from the source over the course is the flow.

The Father is the Source of the divine life.
The Son is the Course of the divine life.
And the Holy Spirit is the flow of the divine life.

As the flow of the Holy Spirit finally God reaches man's inner being.

Now I will quote the sentences immediately above verse 15. Some readers may see it.

"But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

He shall glorify Me, for He shall receive of Mine and shall disclose it to you.

All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He receives of Mine and shall disclose it to you." (John 16:13-15)

If you study the passage carefully you see that the Father and the Son exist concurrently and the Son and the Spirit also exist concurrently.

"But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

He shall glorify Me, for He shall receive of Mine and shall disclose it to you.

All that the Father has is Mine; therefore I said that He receives of Mine and shall disclose it to you." (John 16:13-15)

The Son and the Holy Spirit exist concurrently because of verse 13.
The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears the Son speak.
This means the Son and the Spirit are concurrently live.

The Father and the Son also exist concurrently because of verse 15.
All the the Father HAS is the Sons. He does not say all that the Father HAD.
This proves the Father and the Son live concurrently.

The Three of the Triune God therefore work together for the accomplishment of God's eternal purpose to dispense the divine life into man.

Originally posted by sonship
I reserve the right to believe that the Lord is one AND that the Father and the Son are the divine we

I'm going to give you some honest heartfelt but admittedly unsolicited advice sonship.

I don't care what you believe, honestly, it's your choice. But you absolutely do not have the "right" before God to believe what you want. This is another "strange" notion you seem to have adopted.

You and I are directed to seek the truth and irrespective of whether you like me or respect me or not...I have presented to you in my post above the simplest of truth about the singular nature of god's entity, backed up with an unquestionable balance of scriptural evidence - what is IN the bible and what is NOT. This is the starting point of fundamental truth.

Your insistence on defining doctrinal truth from semantics and convoluted and sometimes incomprehensible scriptural exegesis, just so that it supports your preconceived concrete opinions, is why you are in this mire of strange beliefs. The gospel is easy, Christ's yoke is light, the God of salvation is accessible and straightforward to all. Not complex and mystical.

You need to be challenged more sonship, iron sharpens iron. I don't mean me - I mean from outside of your local group. You have been drinking you groups's kool-aid way too long. You have a massive energy for scriptural research and perhaps this is a gift - but you are not using it correctly in my honest opinion.

Edit: this post is meant with the very best of intentions 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm going to give you some honest heartfelt but admittedly unsolicited advice sonship.

I don't care what you believe, honestly, it's your choice. But you absolutely do not have the "right" before God to believe what you want. This is another "strange" notion you seem to have adopted.

You and I are directed to seek the truth and irrespective of w ...[text shortened]... correctly in my honest opinion.

Edit: this post is meant with the very best of intentions 🙂

The guy met Jesus Christ who speaks regularly to him.
He has Gods Spirit.
He is regenerated.
He knows Witness Lee personally !!!

And you have the balls to argue with him?

Originally posted by Rajk999

And you have the balls to argue with him?

Oh Rajk999. keeper of the commands of Jesus, since you couldn't find time to expound the Matthew 5:22 passage about calling people Moreh and Raca, maybe you could expound this one for us.

" Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but only that which is good for building up, according to the need, that it may give grace to those who hear." (Eph. 4:29)

Once again, I thought not to ask any namby pamby "Once Saved Always Saved" posters. But you being a staunch keeper of the commands of Jesus, I am sure you would have good explanation of that passage.

Originally posted by divegeester

I'm going to give you some honest heartfelt but admittedly unsolicited advice sonship.

Ok. I hope it results in me having more Christ.

I don't care what you believe, honestly, it's your choice. But you absolutely do not have the "right" before God to believe what you want.

Are you saying that I have not the right to believe that the Father Who is God and the Son Who is God incarnate are spoken of, out of the mouth of Jesus Christ, as "We" ?

" ... and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (See Jon 14:23)

I have no right to believe this "We" refers to God the Father and God the Son - (God incarnate as a man) ?

I do have not only that right, but that obligation as a follower of Jesus.

This is another "strange" notion you seem to have adopted.

Are you saying it is strange that I believe the plural pronouns "We" in John 14:23 and "Us" in John 17:21 refer to God ?

But this is what God has written through the Apostle John in his word. Had you been there would you have told John definitely NOT to write such "strange" things ? I think he did so in faithfulness and in obedience under divine inspiration.

Would you have said "Apostle John! You have no right to pen down such STRANGE things such as the Father and the are "We" and "Us" "

You and I are directed to seek the truth and irrespective of whether you like me or respect me or not...I have presented to you in my post above the simplest of truth about the singular nature of god's entity, backed up with an unquestionable balance of scriptural evidence - what is IN the bible and what is NOT. This is the starting point of fundamental truth.

John 14:23 and John 17:21 are in the Bible. Are you saying they are not in the Bible ?

Your insistence on defining doctrinal truth from semantics and convoluted and sometimes incomprehensible scriptural exegesis,

"We" and "Us" are plural pronouns. There is nothing convoluted about understanding that.

just so that it supports your preconceived concrete opinions, is why you are in this mire of strange beliefs.

I do not feel I am in any "mire of strange beliefs". I do believe that God is "Wonderful". And I do experience and enjoy the Triune God.

Are you saying that I should not love the Trinity?
But I love the Trinity.

I love the one God who is the Divine "We" of the Father and the Son.
I love the ONE GOD who is the Divine "Us" of the Son and the Father.

I am out to persuade you to love the Trinity too.
Be careful.

If I get my way, your heart will begin to soften and even melt to love the three-one God.
Maybe I am a fool wasting his time. But I am out to teach you to absolutely LOVE the Trinity.

The Triune God is the only hope for the oneness of the believers.

" That they may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21)

I am actually going to try to teach you to love the Trinity. If you do not want to love the Trinity, you'd be advised well to stop reading my posts.

The Trinity is for LOVING, didn't you know ??

The gospel is easy, Christ's yoke is light, the God of salvation is accessible and straightforward to all. Not complex and mystical.

Yes. I agree. But don't we seek also to GO ON ? Don't we seek to go from the milk of the word to the solid food of the word ?

You need to be challenged more sonship, iron sharpens iron. I don't mean me - I mean from outside of your local group.

What about the sweetness though ? What about the sheer SWEETNESS of the Triune God ? It is impossible that there could be a sweet enjoyment that exceeds the Trinity.
I haven't found any.

So iron sharpens iron?
You cannot deny the divine "We" of the ONE GOD.
You cannot deny the divine "Us" of the ONE GOD.

When it comes to the Trinity, you cannot beat Him. You might as well JOIN Him.
We need to be swallowed up into this oneness !

Huh? Says me? Says a little Chinese man by the name of Witness Lee ??
No indeed. So says the Lord Jesus Himself.

" That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believ that You have sent Me." (John 17:21)

Do we not need to be swallowed up into the oneness of the Triune God in a real sense ?

Do the Christians not need to be "perfected into one" in the sphere and realm of the Father and the Son as the God ?

"And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one; (v.22)

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (v.23)

The Trinity that you rile against here is the very divine life power of the oneness of the Body of Christ. He is the real eternal unity. He is the real divine oneness.

Sooner or latter, you are going to love the three-oneness of God.

You have been drinking you groups's kool-aid way too long. You have a massive energy for scriptural research and perhaps this is a gift - but you are not using it correctly in my honest opinion.

We will have to examine this so-called "kool-aid." But don't send me off to some websites to argue with some other authors. Actually, I don't want to argue. But it may be necessary.

In my quest to teach you how much you should love the One God Who is three-one, it may be necessary to argue a little.

Edit: this post is meant with the very best of intentions

I sense your constructive spirit here. And I welcome it.

At best I will show you why I cannot but LOVE the Trinity. He is my salvation. He is the salvation of the practical church life. As I indicated above, the church of the Thessalonians was in the realm of the Triune God:

" Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

Grace to you and peace. (1 Thess. 1:1)

This verse is not at all to be taken for granted. The REALM, the SPHERE in which the local church lived and existed was the realm of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's the TRIUNE GOD !!

(Excuse me. I am getting a little excited.)