Originally posted by sonship

The great sign you speak of represents two things that are one. The woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, is the Church established by Jesus to Peter. These symbols also represent Mary, the mother of Jesus. They are both the Ark of the Covenant.

This woman should not be Mary. The first born shild of Mary was Jesus. All ...[text shortened]... days.

Now I think the Jewish year in John's and Daniel's thought is 360 days not 365 days.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Your undoing is that you are very literal in trying to understand the scripture.

By the standards you offer, would you say real flames (fire) comes from the mouths of the Two Witnesses?

Your undoing is that you are very literal in trying to understand the scripture.

By the standards you offer, would you say real flames (fire) comes from the mouths of the Two Witnesses?

New American Standard Bible
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

King James Bible
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and consumes their enemies; if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

International Standard Version
And if anyone should want to hurt them, fire comes out of their mouths and burns up their enemies. If anyone wants to hurt them, he must be killed in this manner.

NET Bible
If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and completely consumes their enemies. If anyone wants to harm them, they must be killed this way.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And whoever seeks to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies and those that choose to harm them; so it is given to them to be killed.”

Originally posted by sonship

Your undoing is that you are very literal in trying to understand the scripture.

It is a trick question to ask if one takes the Bible literally.
I take it at face value.

When allegory, or poetry, or symbolism, or history, or song, or prophecy, or parabolic language of signs are being employed is for the serious reader to asc ...[text shortened]... eir enemies and those that choose to harm them; so it is given to them to be killed.”
[/quote]

From The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee on Joseph's two dreams.

The scene of the Universal Bright Woman reminds us of Joseph's dream. As his brothers were in God's eyes as Sheaves of life and stars of light, though they were really not so good in man's eyes.

In the same way the accuser of the brothers in Revelatio 10 is put to shame because God's faithfulness transforms some cooperative ones into overcomers. The principle of God's salvation being stronger and more faithful than man's failuer is seen in Revelation

chapter 12.

(5) Viewing His People as Sheaves of Life
and as the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars of Light

(a) As Sheaves of Life

Now I have a heavy burden to share something very meaningful with you. If you had been Joseph, would you have considered your brothers heavenly and full of life and light? In 37:2 we are told that Joseph brought to his father an evil report regarding his brothers. Furthermore, according to chapter thirty-seven, Joseph's brothers were full of hatred and anger, and according to chapter thirty-eight, they were full of lust. In chapter thirty-seven we see the hatred and anger of Joseph's brothers, and in chapter thirty-eight we see Judah's lust. Joseph saw the evil of his brothers and reported it to his father. But Joseph had two dreams (37:5-9). In the first dream Joseph saw sheaves in the field. This dream reveals that, at the most, Joseph was just a sheaf and that, at the worst, his brothers also were sheaves. God gave Joseph this dream, and in it he had God's view of his brothers. Joseph might have said to his father, "Daddy, my brothers are so poor. How I have suffered from their evil! Oh, they are full of anger and lust!" But God came to give Joseph a dream, and He seemed to say, "Joseph, in My eyes you are the same as your brothers, and they are just as good as you are. You are a sheaf, and they also are sheaves. The only difference between you and them is that I have chosen you to reign. But this does not mean that you are better than they are."

If we do not have experience, we shall not be able to understand the word in the Bible regarding Joseph's dream of the sheaves. When you first come into the church life, you may say, "How wonderful the church life is! The brothers and sisters are all marvelous! How I love the church!" However, the more you love the church and care for the saints, the more "gophers," "turtles," and "scorpions" you will see. Then you will say, "Lord, what is this? Lord, the situation in the church is pitiful. Not even the elders are any good. And look at all the sisters! I don't want to sit near them in the meetings." At such a time you need a heavenly dream. When the dream comes, the Lord will tell you, "You are not any better, and the others are not worse than you. You are all sheaves of life in Me. There are no 'gophers,' 'scorpions,' or 'turtles' among My people. All are sheaves full of life." If I had not seen such a heavenly dream, I would have quit long ago. But I have seen the dream. I have seen that I am a sheaf and that all those who in my eyes are "gophers" are sheaves also. In the eyes of God, they are sheaves.

Years ago, I prayed many accusing prayers to the Lord; I reported to Him the evils I had seen. In my prayers I said, "Lord, I have given up my job and consecrated my life and my future for this work. But, Lord, look at this people!" Eventually, however, the dream came, and the Lord said to me, "You are not better than they. At the most, you are just a sheaf, and, at the worst, they also are sheaves." At the beginning I was troubled and argued with the Lord, saying, "Lord, You are not thorough. You are superficial. Don't You see their heart?" But the Lord said, "I don't look at them from your view. I see them from My view. In the New Jerusalem there are no 'gophers' and 'scorpions.'"

One day I received great help by reading Balaam's prophecy in Numbers 23. According to the book of Numbers, the children of Israel had done many evil things. Balaam was hired by a heathen king to curse Israel and to expose the evil in Israel. But God spoke through Balaam, and Balaam said, "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel" (Num. 23:21). God seemed to be saying, "I have not beheld any iniquity in My people. I do not see any perverseness in them."

Elijah complained against Israel saying, "The children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away" (1 Kings 19:10). Elijah was accusing Israel before God. Being displeased with this, the Lord replied, "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him" (1 Kings 19:18). Do not go to the Lord in the way of accusing others before Him. Instead, you should say to Him, "Lord, since You see no iniquity, I do not choose to see any either. All the 'gophers' and 'scorpions' are sheaves, and I love them."

However, this is not easy to do. You may even think that I am teaching you to lie, for you may say, "Brother So-and-so is pitiful. I could never say that he is a sheaf." But who is right—God or you? And what about the dream? If you have seen the heavenly dream, then you have seen that in God's view all His people are sheaves full of life to produce food for the meal offering to satisfy God and man.

Originally posted by sonship
From [b]The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee on Joseph's two dreams.

The scene of the Universal Bright Woman reminds us of Joseph's dream. As his brothers were in God's eyes as Sheaves of life and stars of light, though they were really not so good in man's eyes.

In the same way the accuser of the brothers in Revelatio 10 is put to sh ...[text shortened]... in my eyes are "gophers" are sheaves also. In the eyes of God, they are sheaves.


[/quote][/b]

Originally posted by RJHinds
Both dreams were predicting the rule of Joseph.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Who?
How many people did he rule over?

Originally posted by sonship

Your undoing is that you are very literal in trying to understand the scripture.

It is a trick question to ask if one takes the Bible literally.
I take it at face value.

When allegory, or poetry, or symbolism, or history, or song, or prophecy, or parabolic language of signs are being employed is for the serious reader to asc ...[text shortened]... eir enemies and those that choose to harm them; so it is given to them to be killed.”
[/quote]