The Universal Bright Woman

Originally posted by HandyAndy
I believe he was married, yes. But not any more. Just the other day I overheard my neighbor
exclaiming to her ex-husband, "Jesus, are you back here again?"

Lol.....

Originally posted by sonship

Brother Nee wrote:

Revelation 12:4 begins, "And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth." Isaiah 9:15 shows that the tail denotes lying and deception. In Revelation 2 and 3, stars refer to angels. Since the stars of heaven are mentioned here, they are the angels. One third of the angels in heaven were deceived by the dragon, and they fell and were cast down with the dragon.

With this comment I don't think I agree. The stars in Revelation 12:4 do represent the angels. I don't think the stars in Revelation 2 and 3 are heavenly angelic messengers but messengers among the human believers in the churches.

I would have referred to the morning stars in the book of Job which are heavenly angels (Job 38:7) as support for the interpretation that the stars in Revelation 12 are heaven's angels.

Originally posted by sonhouse
You are the poster boy for obsession. I have a real life, kids, grandkids, a full time job, a home recording studio, study astronomy, evolution, geology, math.

You do one thing, call anyone numbnuts to anyone not falling down at your feet and submitting to your non existent bible god.

I am trying to scale back on calling people numbnuts, but it is not easy. What you may lack in your studies is the study of Intelligent Design in nature and Creation. And try not to obsess so much on billions of years.

Originally posted by sonship
Brother Nee wrote:

[quote] Revelation 12:4 begins, "And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth." Isaiah 9:15 shows that the tail denotes lying and deception. In Revelation 2 and 3, stars refer to angels. Since the stars of heaven are mentioned here, they are the angels. One third of the angels in heaven w ...[text shortened]... 38:7) as support for the interpretation that the stars in Revelation 12 are heaven's angels.[/b]

I believe the angels of the churches are the pastors.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am trying to scale back on calling people numbnuts, but it is not easy. What you may lack in your studies is the study of Intelligent Design in nature and Creation. And try not to obsess so much on billions of years.

There is a major difference between obsession and simply following the evidence. If we find a 300 million year old parakeet all bets are off and intelligent design might be considered viable but till then I'll follow the evidence on the ground.

All you can do is spout scripture as if those dudes knew ANYTHING about real science.

They didn't even know stuff was made of atoms so how do you expect them to come up with anything but stuff made up on the spot.

They didn't have a god to guide them otherwise it would have given them a lot more than 'let there be light', it would have said, there are animals too small for you to see so make sure those parasites don't get into your body when you eat pork, just cook the hell out of it first. Something like that, not just 'don't eat pork' with no explanation.

The fact the words were so shallow proves it came from people not deities.

A real god would have known people were intelligent enough to accept stuff like that without driving them insane.

Originally posted by sonship
More from [b]The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

(I'll be back to discuss serious posts latter)

Who then is this woman? The Old Testament shows that only one woman encountered the serpent—Eve in Genesis 3. In the New Testament there is also only one woman who encounters the serpent. H ...[text shortened]... re, it stands before the woman and waits to devour her child as soon as she delivers.

[/b]

Since this vision is symbolic, there can be different ways one might interpret this. However, I strongly believe the the son or male child is a reference to Christ, who was caught up to the throne of His Father in heaven and is destined to return and rule the nations with a rod of iron.

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

(Revelation 12:5 NASB)

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Revelation 12:1,2

And a great sign was seen in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."

Three light giving aspects of this woman reveal that she is a totality of spi ...[text shortened]... l the ages.

This woman becomes the New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation.[/b]

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Watchman Nee seems to have a good idea in trying to determine the symbolism concerning the women. However, I believe Watchman Nee missed something. Here is what he missed:

Now he (Joseph) had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”

(Genesis 37:9-10 NASB)

Here the sun is the father, Jacob (Israel), and the moon is the mother, Rachael, and the eleven stars are the brothers of Joseph. Here is the same symbolism of sun, moon, and twelve stars that forms a crown around the women in Revelation 12:1. So it appears that this woman has something to do with the family of Israel. The crown (stephanos) is a metaphor for the honor and rewards bestowed upon faithful believers at the judgment seat of Christ. So the women could represent Christians (believers) that come from Israel.

Verse 5 says, "And she brought forth a son, a man-child." In order to see the relationship between the woman and the man-child, let us look at Galatians 4:26: "But the Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother." The last part of Galatians 4:27 says, "Because many are the children of her who is desolate rather than of her who has her husband." The Jerusalem that is above is the New Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem is the woman, the goal which God desires to obtain in eternity. The woman in creation is Eve, the woman in the age of grace is the Body of Christ, the woman at the end of the age of grace is described in Revelation 12, and the woman in eternity future will be the New Jerusalem. When the Word says that the Jerusalem which is above has many children, it does not mean that the mother and the children are separate. It means that one has become many, and many are composed into one. The many children added together equal the mother. It is not as if the mother delivers five children, and then there are six individuals, but that the five children added together compose the mother. Each child is a portion of the mother—one portion of the mother is taken out for this child, another portion is taken out for another child, and so for each one. It seems as if they are all born of her, but in fact they are herself. The mother is not another being in addition to the children; she is the summation of all the children. When we look at the whole, we see the mother; when we look at them one by one, we see the children. When we look at the totality of the people in God's purpose, we see the woman; if we look at them separately, we see many sons. This is a special principle.

The same meaning is applied in Revelation 12 when it speaks about the woman delivering a son, a man-child. The man-child delivered by this woman is a wonder and a sign. The words "bring forth" do not mean that the child had his origin with her and was then separated from her, but merely that within her there is such a being. "She brought forth a son, a man-child" simply means that a group of people is included in this woman.

From The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee

Cont. The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

All of God's people have a part in His eternal purpose, but not all assume their rightful responsibility. Therefore, God chooses a group of people from among them. This group is a portion of the whole, a part of the many chosen by God. This is the man-child brought forth by the woman. As a whole it is the mother; as a minority it is the man-child. The man-child is the "brothers" in verse 10 and "they" in verse 11. This means that the man-child is not a single individual, but a composition of many persons. All of these persons added together become the man-child. In comparison with the mother, the man-child appears to be small. When the group is compared with the whole, their number is in the minority. But God's plan is fulfilled in them and His purpose rests upon them.

Verse 5 says, "She brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod." This speaks of the millennial kingdom. The overcomers are the instrument that enables God to achieve His purpose. Revelation mentions shepherding "the nations with an iron rod" three times. First, 2:26-27 says, "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod." This passage quite obviously refers to the overcomers in the church. The last mention of this phrase is 19:15, which says, "And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod." This passage refers to the Lord Jesus. To whom then does the passage in chapter twelve refer? It must refer either to the overcomers in the church or to the Lord Jesus. Is it possible that it refers to the Lord Jesus? No. (However, it is not wholly impossible, for later we will see that the Lord Jesus is included here.) Why is it not possible? First, the man-child was caught up to the throne of God immediately after he was born. Therefore, this could not be a reference to the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus was not caught up immediately after He was born. He lived thirty-three and a half years on this earth, died, resurrected, and then ascended to the heavens. For this reason we believe that the man-child refers to the overcomers in the church. It is the portion of the people in the church who are the overcomers. The man-child refers to them, not to the Lord Jesus. (However, the man-child does include the Lord Jesus, since the Lord Jesus was the first overcomer and all overcomers are included in the Lord Jesus.) The man-child and the mother are different, and yet they are also one. The overcomers differ from the church, but they are included in the church.

[my bolding]

Originally posted by sonship

The same meaning is applied in Revelation 12 when it speaks about the woman delivering a son, a man-child. The man-child delivered by this woman is a wonder and a sign. The words "bring forth" do not mean that the child had his origin with her and was then separated from her, but merely that within her there is such a being. "She brought forth a son, a man-child" simply means that a group of people is included in this woman.

Simply?

Witness Lee on Revelation 12:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1EED

LIFE-STUDY OF REVELATION
MESSAGE THIRTY-SIX
THE MAN-CHILD
AND THE REST OF THE WOMAN’S SEED

We have seen that the woman in Revelation 12 is not an individual woman, but a collective, universal woman symbolizing the totality of God’s people. In Genesis 3:15 the woman was local and individual; the seed, Christ, was also individual; and the serpent was a small snake. All three, the woman, the seed, and the serpent, were individual and on a small scale. But in Revelation 12 the woman is universal and collective, symbolizing all of God’s people: the patriarchs represented by the twelve stars; Israel represented by the moon; and the church, the New Testament believers, represented by the sun. In Revelation 12 the serpent has become a dragon. While the serpent creeps on earth, the dragon flies through the air. Now Satan not only moves on the earth, but is also exceedingly active in the air. The seed in this chapter is not just the individual Christ but is a corporate entity, the corporate Christ, including Christ as the Head and all His overcoming believers as the Body. Hence, the three items found in Genesis 3:15 are seen in a highly developed form in Revelation 12. In this message we need to consider the man-child and the rest of the woman’s seed.

I. THE MAN-CHILD
A. The Stronger Part within the Woman

Verse 2 says that the woman was with child, and verse 5 says that “she brought forth a son, a man-child.” The child here, being a man-child, signifies the stronger part of God’s people. Although in verse 2 this child was in the woman, the Word does not call him a baby, but a man-child. By reading and praying over this portion of the Word, we realize that man-child here does not indicate a baby. Rather, it indicates the stronger part within the woman. The woman represents the totality of God’s people. But throughout all generations there have been some stronger ones among God’s people. These are considered in the Bible as a collective unit fighting the battle for God and bringing God’s kingdom down to earth.

History proves that not everyone among God’s people is a strong one. No, only a minority of God’s people are strong ones. This was true during the time of the patriarchs. Do you not believe that during Noah’s time there were others who belonged to God besides Noah? I believe that God had hundreds of people. Noah, however, was a strong one. During the time of Israel, there were hundreds of thousands who belonged to God, but only a few of them were strong. For example, Elijah and Jeremiah were strong ones. Undoubtedly, the majority of God’s people were genuine, but they were not strong. We find the same thing in the New Testament. Although there were thousands of Christians in the early days, not that many were truly strong. Even at present there are thousands, even millions, of Christians, but not many are strong. I encourage you all to be strong.

We should not only be part of the woman, but also part of the man-child. In the Bible woman signifies the weaker one, and man signifies the stronger one (1 Pet. 3:7). The man-child, the stronger part, is within the woman, the weaker part. Although the woman is bright and universal, she is not altogether strong. Only a part within her is strong. This is true in the local churches, even here in Anaheim. Not all those in Anaheim are strong ones. Rather, I believe that in Anaheim there are more weak ones than strong ones. How about your locality? Everywhere the strong ones are few, and the weak ones are many.

There is a proverb that says that if we do not have quantity, we can never have quality. Quality comes out of quantity. Suppose God had a hundred thousand people. If one per cent of this number were strong ones, then there would be one thousand strong ones. Firstly, we have quantity, then quality. God’s way is always wise. Firstly, He gains the quantity. He calls many, but chooses few. As Matthew 22:14 says, “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

Although we all have come into the Lord’s recovery, we should not say that everyone in the recovery will be an overcomer. We have no warrant for saying this. We can only say that those in the recovery have a greater possibility of being overcomers. Whether or not you will be an overcomer depends upon you; it depends upon how much you share of God’s grace. How much you share of God’s grace will determine whether or not you will be a strong one among God’s people in the Lord’s recovery. I thank the Lord that we all are part of the woman, but I dare not say that we all are also part of the man-child. We must look to the Lord that we may be enriched, strengthened, and become more solid so that we might grow from the woman into her stronger part. But no matter how strong you become, do not prematurely separate yourself from the woman. If you do that, you will have a miscarriage. Be careful not to be “too strong.” If you are too strong, you will come out of the woman too soon. Stay in the woman as part of the man-child until the time of delivery has come.

How can we be the man-child? If you would be part of the man-child, you must eat more, grow more, and become stronger. To put it into practical terms, you must pray more, spend more time with the Lord, eat more of the Word, experience the Lord more, grow in life more, and have more dealings with the negative things. If others would gossip, you would not gossip. If others would not pray, you would pray more. Although you should not be separate from the woman, you should be somewhat different from others. The woman is too general. Those who are part of the man-child are somewhat particular. Many of the dear ones in the Lord’s recovery are indifferent. They have little appetite and do not like to eat very much. But if you would be in the man-child, you should not be indifferent. You must be particular, sober, and serious. You must have a good appetite and have a personal, direct moment by moment dealing with the Lord. If you are like this, then it is possible that you will be the stronger part in the Lord’s recovery, the stronger part within the woman. Whether or not you will be in the man-child depends upon how you react to God’s desire, God’s move, and God’s eternal economy. If, day and night, you cannot go on until you have given yourself wholly and thoroughly to God’s economy, then it is likely that you are a part of the man-child.

Originally posted by sonship

Verse 5 says, "And she brought forth a son, a man-child." In order to see the relationship between the woman and the man-child, let us look at Galatians 4:26: "But the Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother." The last part of Galatians 4:27 says, "Because many are the children of her who is desolate rather than of her who has her husband." ...[text shortened]... people is included in this woman.

From [b]The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee[/b]

No, I don't believe that makes sense. The son that is born of a woman is the Christ child and the government will rest on His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6) and He will rule them with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15).

No, I don't believe that makes sense. The son that is born of a woman is the Christ child and the government will rest on His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6) and He will rule them with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). [/b]

RJHinds sets up a fallacious false dichotomy.

He does not explain how Christ having co-kings reigning with Him makes it not true that the government rests upon His shoulders.

The complaint is foolish. Which one of the promises makes it not true that the government rests upon Christ's shoulders?

1.) "And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF [many] KINGS AND LORD OF [many] LORDS." (Rev. 19:16)

Christ being "KING OF KINGS" in no way makes it not true that the government rests on His shoulders.

2.) "He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)

The promise in no way negates that the government shall be on Christ's shoulders.

3.) " ... those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4c)

The prophecy in no way contradicts that the government shall be on the shoulders of Jesus Christ (Isa.9:6) .

4.) "And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)

Nothing in this promise makes it untrue that the government shall be on the shoulders of Christ.

5.) "If we endure, we will also reign with Him ..." (2 Timothy 2:12a)

Nothing about this promise makes it not true that the government shall rest upon His shoulders.

6.) "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of potters are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 3:26,27)

Nothing about this promise renders Isaiah 9:6 not true - that the government shall be upon the shoulders of the Son of God.

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (v.5)

And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb ... etc. etc. " (vs.10,11a)

Nothing about overcomers co-shepherding the nations with Jesus Christ makes it untrue that the government rests upon the shoulders of Christ.

The fact of co-kings, co-reigning with Christ does not remover the government from His shoulders. Like Christ they have overcome their apportioned assignment of God. This does not negate in ANY conceivable way that the government of the world will be upon the shoulders of Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
Cont. [b]The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

All of God's people have a part in His eternal purpose, but not all assume their rightful responsibility. Therefore, God chooses a group of people from among them. This group is a portion of the whole, a part of the many chosen by God. This is the ma ...[text shortened]... rcomers differ from the church, but they are included in the church.

[my bolding]

[/b]

The text of Revelation 12:5 does not say her son or male child was caught up to the throne of God immediately. You are adding to the words of this prophecy by adding the word "immediately" when it is not there.

You must not forget that Jesus was the first overcomer and has all authority to grant the honor to other overcomers of shepherding the nations with HIM.

I also see nothing in the text that implies the son or male child is a group of people.

Originally posted by sonship
Witness Lee on Revelation 12:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1EED

[b] LIFE-STUDY OF REVELATION
MESSAGE THIRTY-SIX
THE MAN-CHILD
AND THE REST OF THE WOMAN’S SEED

We have seen that the woman in Revelation 12 is not an individual woman, but a collective, universal woman symbolizing the totality of God’s pe ...[text shortened]... nd thoroughly to God’s economy, then it is likely that you are a part of the man-child.

[/b]

The Roman Catholic Church says the woman represents Mary. However, I can see where the woman, sun, moon, and twelve stars could be a symbol of all the women of Israel that were involved to bring forth the male, who was to overcome and rule the nations with a rod of iron and also be caught up to the throne of God. That male is the Messiah of Israel.

I suppose that Watchman Nee makes no comment as to why the twelve stars are arranged as a crown. Do you have an opinion?