The Universal Bright Woman

Originally posted by RJHinds

The text of Revelation 12:5 does not say her son or male child was caught up to the throne of God immediately.

It is not necessary that it say he was caught up "immediately".
It is not necessary that it says he was caught up head first, or on a slant, or perfectly vertically or any number of miscellaneous and arbitrary things.

There is no profit in making is a requirement that the word "immediately" has to be used.

The sequence of events makes the facts immediately follow one another.

The woman brings forth. (v.5)
The child is raptured. (v.5)
The women flees to the wilderness. (v.6)
The war commences in heaven. (v.7)
Satan and angels are defeated an driven down. (v.8,9)
Proclamation is made in heaven that the ovecomers have prevailed. (v.10)

The facts following one another and making an issue that the word "immediately" HAS to be used is arbitrary.

You are adding to the words of this prophecy by adding the word

Your insistence that the appearance of word "immediately" mandatory is arbitrary.

You must not forget that Jesus was the first overcomer and has all authority to grant the honor to other overcomers of shepherding the nations with HIM.

Far from "forget" we establish the truth. That is the point, that some are destined to be like Him in that regard.

We do not partake in any of His work of redemption. We are called to partake in overcoming through Him. That is exactly what the chapter establishes - that a remnant, a minority will be the stronger part of the majority and overcome.

I also see nothing in the text that implies the son or male child is a group of people.

That is too bad. But that is your shortsightedness.

The fact of the matter is that even if you do not see it in the symbolism, the plain non-symbolic teaching of New Testament establishes the same as far as co-reigners with Christ.

To reign over our old selves is no small thing. We were saved to reign in life.

"For if by the offense of the one death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17)

There is a reward for reigning in life through Christ. The reward is dispenses in the millennial kingdom.

Why should not the Bible portray in symbolic pictures the plain teaching that "If we endure we will also reign with Him ..." (2 Tim. 2:12) .

What possible cause for alarm could there be?
What ground of presumption should there be?
We will not know WHO will be thus rewarded until the time.
So why should we not lay hold of the promise as an incentive?

Proverbs 16:32 says "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty; And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city."

To exercise self control through the Holy Spirit today is to be faithful over a few things. Jesus' parable was that he who was faithful over a few things would be given authority over many things (Matt. 25:21).

We shall be as those who capture a CITY of we through grace capture our fallen natures today.

Christ, with the government upon His shoulders, will assign authority over cities to His overcoming faithful servants.

"And he said to him, Well done, good slave. Because you have become faithful in the least, have authority over ten cities." (Luke 19:17)

"And he said to this one as well, And you, be over five cities." (v.19)

It is not insignificant to "reign in life" in the church age. And it is not insignificant to overcome, standing upon the promise that in Christ we are "more than conquerors" (Rom. 8:37)

The interpretation of the symbols in Revelation 12 is reliable as I have presented. But even if one does not agree with a rapture of a minority of overcomers, the plain teaching of the NT confirms that overcoming saints will reign with Christ as are reward.

I also see nothing in the text that implies the son or male child is a group of people.

That's shortsighted of you. And you cannot see it because you are probably too inundated with traditional thoughts which lack depth in appreciating God's full economy.

From The Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=15AF

On the warfare in heaven:

This vision unveils the true situation in the universe. The worldly people can only see the obvious outward things: commerce, politics, industry, education, war. If you ask them the meaning of all this, they would say that they do not know. They only know to obtain an education that they may have a good job to earn a good living. They do not have the vision of what is taking place in the universe. But we see clearly what is going on. A woman symbolizes God’s people and represents God. In a positive sense, the wife always represents her husband. If your wife does not represent you properly, you will be shameful. But it is wonderful to have a wife to represent you in a good way. This signifies that we, the people of God, are His wife and that we need to represent Him adequately. God is the unique husband, and we, the unique wife, represent Him. But God has an enemy. Firstly, this enemy was a little serpent. Eventually, however, it became a great dragon who is now in front of us. If you do not have this vision, you will be blind, not knowing what is taking place on earth or in the universe. Praise the Lord that it is not simply a matter of education, industry, commerce, diplomacy, etc., but a matter of warfare between the people of God and God’s enemy. This war has been raging throughout the centuries and it is still raging today.

We all must be aware of the fight between the woman and the dragon. Actually, it is not the woman who fights, but the stronger part within her. Of those in the Lord’s recovery, some belong to this stronger part. This stronger part must bear the responsibility to fight the battle. The way to fight is by praying. Through the past four messages the dragon has been exposed and now he is naked. Hallelujah, we know what and who he is, and we know what his destination will be. We all need to preach to Satan about this. This will terrify him.

Most Christians mainly see that man fell, that God so loved the world and sent His only begotten Son to be the Savior, and that sinners need to hear the gospel, repent, and be forgiven of their sins and saved, so that one day they will go to heaven. But we must see something higher. The book of Revelation unveils a universal scene, a universal view. It is not simply that man has fallen—it is that God’s enemy is fighting against Him. In His economy God has selected a people to be a glorious woman. Once we were sinners, but now we are part of this glorious woman. Before I was saved, I was a poor sinner, but after I was regenerated, I became a part of the glorious woman. Look at how bright she is. In her there is no darkness at all. With her, everything is light—the light of the sun, the moon, and the stars. In front of this glorious woman is a blood-shedding, murderous dragon. We have no choice except to fight against him. But, according to the vision, the whole woman does not fight; the stronger part within her does the fighting against the dragon.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]No, I don't believe that makes sense. The son that is born of a woman is the Christ child and the government will rest on His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6) and He will rule them with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). [/b]

RJHinds sets up a fallacious false dichotomy.

He does not explain how Christ having co-kings reigning with Him ...[text shortened]... te in ANY conceivable way that the government of the world will be upon the shoulders of Christ.[/b]

I did not intend to imply that the prophecy was negated by the fact that the government will rest on HIS shoulders. I only pointed this out to emphasize that Christ is the best fit for the son or male that is destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron on HIS second coming.

And the Devil, who is symbolized by a Red Dragon of seven kingdoms will be overcome by the Son or male child brought forth from the women.

Continued from Life Study of Revelation W. Lee

I. BECAUSE OF THE MAN-CHILD’S
RAPTURE TO HEAVEN

There will be war in heaven because of the man-child’s rapture to heaven. Many Christians have a poor concept of the rapture, thinking that rapture is merely for the purpose of giving them a happy time, of taking them to a pleasant place. The rapture is not only for us; it is for God’s economy and for God’s strategy. God’s enemy is still in the heavens. This enemy has been judged and his sentence has been pronounced, but during the past nineteen centuries God has not had those who could execute His sentence upon the enemy. Satan, the enemy of God, was judged by the Lord Jesus on the cross (John 12:31; 16:11). Following that, there is the need of the overcoming believers to carry out that judgment, to execute that sentence. The fighting waged by the overcoming believers against Satan is actually the execution of the Lord’s judgment upon him. Eventually, through their fighting, he will be cast out of heaven (v. 9). Who will go to heaven to execute God’s judgment and command the condemned, judged, and sentenced enemy to depart? The angels will not do this, for they are not qualified. The angels lack the position to do this because, being angels, they are on the same level as Satan who formerly was among them. God needs a man to accomplish this. This man has a Head—the man Jesus. He is the Head of the man-child, the Pioneer of all the overcomers. God needs such a man to execute His sentence upon Satan. God has been waiting a long time for this man. Although God does not have him yet, one day He will have him.

We must be raptured to the heavens to fulfill God’s need. We should not care that much for our own happiness. To care for our happiness is a Babylonian concept. This is also the concept of Catholicism derived from Babylonianism and resembling Buddhism. Religion is for human happiness, for having a good life in a merry land after we die. This thought is devilish. But, alas, this concept has infiltrated all of Christianity. Christians only care for their happiness, saying, “We like to have joy and a happy life. We want to go to heaven when we die, for we shall be happy there.” In Christianity you probably never heard that God has an eternal purpose and that we must fulfill God’s purpose. We need to be raptured to heaven, not for our happiness, but for the fulfilling of God’s purpose. We must go there to execute God’s judgment upon His enemy. God is waiting for this.

Originally posted by sonship
From [b] The Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=15AF

On the warfare in heaven:

This vision unveils the true situation in the universe. The worldly people can only see the obvious outward things: commerce, politics, industry, education, war. If you ask them the meaning of all this, th ...[text shortened]... oman does not fight; the stronger part within her does the fighting against the dragon.

[/b]

I understand that the Nation of Israel is said to be the wife of God in the Old Testament scriptures (Jeremiah 31:31-33). Israel is considered the barren wife of God until she brings forth the firstborn Son of God, the Messiah of Israel.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I understand that the Nation of Israel is said to be the wife of God in the Old Testament scriptures (Jeremiah 31:31-33). Israel is considered the barren wife of God until she brings forth the firstborn Son of God, the Messiah of Israel.

In Ephesians Five we see the same concept for the new covenant church. See Ephesians 5:22-33.


During the church age, Israel as a counterpart, is under a disciplinary suspension.

Israel as the kingdom has been put aside for a season in a disciplinary way.

Matthew 21:43 - " Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nations producing its fruit."

This is why the concept of overcoming is important to grasp.
The corporate man-child will probably consist of some overcomers from the OT age as well as from the church age.

Important words:

We must be raptured to the heavens to fulfill God’s need. We should not care that much for our own happiness. To care for our happiness is a Babylonian concept. This is also the concept of Catholicism derived from Babylonianism and resembling Buddhism. Religion is for human happiness, for having a good life in a merry land after we die. This thought is devilish. But, alas, this concept has infiltrated all of Christianity. Christians only care for their happiness, saying, “We like to have joy and a happy life. We want to go to heaven when we die, for we shall be happy there.” In Christianity you probably never heard that God has an eternal purpose and that we must fulfill God’s purpose. We need to be raptured to heaven, not for our happiness, but for the fulfilling of God’s purpose. We must go there to execute God’s judgment upon His enemy. God is waiting for this.

Originally posted by sonship

I understand that the Nation of Israel is said to be the wife of God in the Old Testament scriptures (Jeremiah 31:31-33). Israel is considered the barren wife of God until she brings forth the firstborn Son of God, the Messiah of Israel.

In [b]Ephesians Five we see the same concept for the new covenant church. See Ephesians 5:22- ...[text shortened]... ild will probably consist of some overcomers from the OT age as well as from the church age.[/b]

The Greek word means "male" not man-child. Man-child is an incorrect translation. This son of the woman, the wife of God, Israel, is none other than Christ Jesus.

Both RJHinds complaints are rejected by this Christian.

His two opinions:

1.) The child brought forth is not a man-child.

2.) The Universal Bright Woman cannot include the New Testament church.

Both complaints we in the Lord's recovery, reject. It is not JUST Israel of the OT that is considered a spouse to God.

" For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.

This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (Eph. 45:31,32)

"For a husband is head of the wife as also Christ is Head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the Body,

But as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be subject to their husbands in everything.

Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, the He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word.

That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish ..." (Eph. 5:23-27)

Five aspects of the church in the book of Ephesians.

From the book The Church as the Body of Christ by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=3451AD7CC4

FIVE ITEMS CONCERNING THE CHURCH
AND THE ONENESS OF THE CHURCH
Scripture Reading: Eph. 2:15, 20-21

Ephesians presents several aspects of the church. Chapter 1 shows that the church is the Body of Christ (v. 23). Chapter 2 shows that the church is a dwelling place, a building (vv. 19-22). Chapter 5 shows that the church is a wife to match a husband (vv. 25-27). Chapter 6 shows that the church is a fighter, a warrior (vv. 10-18). Hence, Ephesians gives four different expressions concerning the church: the Body, the dwelling place, the wife, and the warrior.

The Body is also spoken of in Romans and 1 Corinthians. The dwelling place, the building, is seen in 1 Corinthians 3 and in 1 Peter 2 as well. Concerning the church, Revelation 12:1 speaks of “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” This woman symbolizes the totality of God's people on earth, including the church in the New Testament age. Then in chapter 21, concerning the New Jerusalem, we see the bride of the Lamb. Therefore, in Revelation the church is both the wife of the Lamb and the city. Therefore, there are five items concerning the church: the Body, the dwelling place, the wife, the warrior, and the city. Although these five items are different, they have a common characteristic.

FIVE ITEMS CONCERNING THE CHURCH

The Body

We know that a body is for the expression of a head. The head is expressed through the body, and it also lives and moves through the body. If we do not have a body, we cannot express ourselves, nor can we live and move. Christ the Head can express Himself, live out Himself, and do what He desires in the universe only through the church as the Body. Therefore, we must remember three points when we speak of the Body: the Body is for expression, living, and moving. Our Lord has accomplished His redemptive work and is in the heavens. However, He is still expressing Himself, living out Himself, and ushering in His move and work on earth through the church, His Body. Therefore, the church as the Body of Christ is the continuation of Christ in time and the spread of Christ in space (Eph. 1:23).

For two thousand years Christ has been visible on earth. However, this Christ is not the individual Christ but the universal Christ. This is because in His ascension He has obtained a universal Body that exists in time and space. Through such a universal Body Christ expresses Himself, lives out Himself and moves and works in this universe.


The Dwelling Place

A dwelling place is where a person resides and rests. God's dwelling place is where He resides and finds rest. If we understand the Bible and touch God's heart, we will sense that in Genesis God was searching for a dwelling place; He could be compared to a homeless person. In Genesis 1 and 2 God did not seem to have a resting place, a home where He could reside. If we touch God's feeling in the Scriptures, we will sympathize with God. Although God has the heavens as His dwelling place in the universe, this does not satisfy His heart's desire; He needs a dwelling place more suitable to His nature. In Exodus the thought of God's need for a dwelling place was revealed after He saved the Israelites out of Egypt. God commanded Moses to build a tabernacle for Him to dwell in (25:8-9); this tabernacle signifies man. When the condition of the Israelites was proper before God, He had a resting place among them.

According to the Scriptures, David was a man according to God's heart (Acts 13:22); he understood God's heart. David's desire to find a resting place for Jehovah was most pleasing to God (Psa. 132:5). In David's time, the Ark, which represented God, was separated from the tabernacle (1 Sam. 4:22—5:1). The Ark was like a man wandering without a resting place. David eventually brought the Ark back (2 Sam. 6:12-15). When he was dwelling in a house of cedar, he remembered God. David was reminded that God did not have a dwelling place and desired to build a dwelling place for God because God did not have a dwelling place. This desire was pleasing to God (7:1-3). Now God desires to work in a group of people through grace to make them into a dwelling place (vv. 11-14). During David's time, God did not allow him to build His dwelling place by his own strength. Solomon, the son of David, built the temple for God (1 Kings 6—8). When the building of the temple was completed, the glory of God filled the temple (8:10-11). At this time God was exceedingly joyful.

In the New Testament God has a spiritual dwelling place, which is the church (Eph. 2:22; 1 Pet. 2:5). Today God has a dwelling place on earth, a place where He can settle down. This place is the church, which is according to His heart. The New Jerusalem, the tabernacle of God among men, will be manifested in eternity. God will tabernacle with man eternally, settle down in man, and enjoy rest with man eternally (Rev. 21:3). Therefore, God's dwelling place is where God finds rest. The church is such a dwelling place to God. Where should people go to find God today? They should go to the church. We can find and meet God only when we come to the church, the house of God. The church is God's dwelling place, the place where God resides.

The Wife

The church is the wife of Christ, the counterpart of Christ. The church as the wife of Christ matches Christ. In Genesis 2:18 God said that it is not good for man to be alone; this word reveals God's heart. God felt that it was not good for Him to be alone; He needed a counterpart, the church. Christ needs the church to be His counterpart. When we see the husband of a couple, we are seeing only half of the couple; there is another half. Both a husband and a wife need to be together to be complete.

For example, if a gourd is cut into two, neither half is complete. Likewise, if a watermelon is cut into two, neither half is complete. It is not complete until both halves are together. In the same way, without man as His match, God is short of His counterpart. This means that without the church, Christ is short of His counterpart. God built the woman in Genesis 2 to match Adam. The church matches Christ as His counterpart. If there is no church, Christ is short of His counterpart. In the universe, God has been longing to find a counterpart for His Son, Christ; that counterpart is the church. The church is the bride of Christ to match Christ.

The Warrior

The church as a warrior is for fighting. The warrior in Ephesians 6 is not an individual saint but the corporate church. The armor in verses 10 through 20 is for the Body, not for an individual. No spiritual believer as an individual can richly experience all the items of the armor. When John Bunyan wrote Pilgrim's Progress, the light concerning the church was not clear. Therefore, he likened the warrior in Ephesians 6 to an individual saint. The warrior in chapter 6 is the church, not an individual; the armor is also a corporate armor, not the armor for an individual saint. Only the church in oneness can experience all the riches of the whole armor of God. God has been hindered from carrying out His purpose by His enemy, Satan. Therefore, in order to accomplish His will, God needs to deal with His enemy through warfare. Ephesians shows how the church fights for God. God deals with His enemy through the church in order to accomplish His will. Therefore, the church is a spiritual warrior, fighting for God to accomplish His purpose.

The City

The city is the aggregate of the four previously mentioned items: the Body, the dwelling place, the wife, and the warrior. The city is the Body of Christ throughout eternity. Christ will be expressed through the city and live in the city. The city is an enlarged dwelling place. In this age, the church is a dwelling place, a temple for God to dwell in; in eternity, this dwelling place will be enlarged, becoming a city. The city is the bride of Christ; the bride and the city are actually one. The city is a warrior, but in eternity, when God's enemy is completely dealt with, there will be no darkness, no death, and no need for fighting. The city is an aggregate of the many statuses of the church.

In relation to authority, when the city is manifested, authority will be fully manifested. Authority can be seen in the Body, the dwelling place, the wife, and the warrior. Especially during warfare, anyone who cannot submit to authority has no place as a warrior; soldiers must submit absolutely to authority. In addition, a city implies ruling. In the holy city, New Jerusalem, God's authority is firmly established; the throne of God with His authority is in the city (Rev. 22:3). God reigns over the nations through this city, and this city is where God executes His authority. The Lord's reigning forever and ever is also a matter of authority. Therefore, the city denotes God's authority and ruling.

We need to see that the Body, the dwelling place, the bride, and the warrior are for the exercise of authority; these items have one goal, the establishment of God's authority so that God's glory can be expressed. In Revelation 21—22 God's authority is as secure as the city. This is accomplished through God's building work throughout the generations. In this city there is the throne of God, signifying God's authority, and there is the life of God as its content. Everything of God is in this city; God can move and rule to express Himself in this city. Through this ruling, God's glory can shine forth, and God will bring the whole universe into harmonious order so that the whole universe can express God's glory in an orderly manner.

Sonship, I see by your profile you are a composer. What do you compose, what style? I compose tunes for stringed instruments and keyboard.

Originally posted by sonship
Both RJHinds complaints are rejected by this Christian.

His two opinions:

1.) The child brought forth is not a [b]man-child.

2.) The Universal Bright Woman cannot include the New Testament church.

Both complaints we in the Lord's recovery, reject. It is not JUST Israel of the OT that is considered a spouse to God.

" Fo ...[text shortened]... y such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish ..." (Eph. 5:23-27)

[/b]

I am not insisting the the vision of the woman can NOT include the church. I just believe the son of the woman is Christ Jesus, who is destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron, and was caught up after His resurrection to the throne of God. I suggest that 'man-child' is an incorrect translation and that 'male' is the correct translation.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Sonship, I see by your profile you are a composer. What do you compose, what style? I compose tunes for stringed instruments and keyboard.

Scriptures which I put to music.

www.scripturesongs.us

Symphonic music but not widely published works.

I belong to a local area composer's society that puts on three concerts a year.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not insisting the the vision of the woman can NOT include the church. I just believe the son of the woman is Christ Jesus, who is destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron, and was caught up after His resurrection to the throne of God. I suggest that 'man-child' is an incorrect translation and that 'male' is the correct translation.

It is not wrong to say that the son of the woman is Christ but it is Christ dispensed into a those saved by Christ.

The voice says "Now is come salvation the salvation ..." does so because salvation includes more than just being forgiven from sins. It includes men and women being infused with, saturated with, permeated with, and mingled with Christ.

This mingling has taken place to the point that God has vindicated their union with Christ by catching them up from paradise (below the altar (6:9-11) to the third heavens to God's throne.

"Now" is a special moment here. Though there is still considerable calamities happening on earth, a strategic advance has taken place in the heavenlies.

"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ ..." (v.10) Like two ends of a circle that join together, the individual Jesus Christ is joined by the corporate Christ (at least for now in a remnant) and the kingdom and power and authority of Christ is secured by Christ's people.

Jesus told His disciples that they would do even greater things -

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also, and greater than these he shall do because I go to the Father." (John 14:12)

The "greater things" are "great" in relation to the will of God. They are the things which God deems as great things. That means oneness with His Son. That is greater according to God's estimation. And the overcoming of the believers are these "greater things" .

In the same passage Jesus promised that His followers could ask whatever they will and it would be done for them -

" ... and greater than these he shall do because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified.

If you ask Me anything in My name I will do it." (John 16:12b-14)

This asking in His name is very profound. It is not the asking for trivial matters to spend upon our petty coveting. It concerns being in His name - being in His Person. It concerns asking things pertaining to His will, His kingdom, and the establishment of His authority on earth.

The rapture of the collective man-child must be realized in this light. This should be the view of the prayer meetings of the local church. We command God concerning the works of His hands. We ask in His name, meaning we live in Him and ask according to His will and for the sake of His kingdom.

God invited his people to command Him concerning His sons and the works of His hands -

"Thus says Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel and the One who formed him, Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And concerning the work of My hands, command Me." (Isaiah 45:11)

"COMMAND ME" is the request of God.
Here it is not "Beg Me" but "command me ... concerning the work of My hands, COMMAND ME."

This part of the authoritative prayers of God's people.
This is the prayer to remove the mountain.
This is part of the greater things Christ expects from His disciples living in oneness with Him. And this is the spirit of the man-child.

When Jesus sent the seventy disciples out to cast out demons He saw prophetically Satan falling from heaven like lightening.

"And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name. And He said to them, I was watching Satan fall like lightening out of heaven." (Luke 10:17,18)

The co-participation with Christ is the goal of the salvation in Christ.
The issue commanding words to the obstacles of His will, in His name.
They request according to God's heart.

This to them is full salvation and it is the coming of the kingdom of God in practicality. God must secure a remnant as a representative group of overcomers who turn the age and bring in the kingdom of God.