Originally posted by Rajk999
It still makes no sense. If the eating of beef causes lives of sorrow and both population and consumption of beef has been increasing rapidly in the last few decades, then those sorrowful lives [in whatever form] should be apparent.

Hindus should be living happy lives as there is almost no beef eating in India. But the opposite appears to be the case agai ...[text shortened]... e countries which has experienced the most abject poverty and suffering in the last few decades.

India has nuclear weapons and nuclear power to supply the peoples energy needs. They also have the current world chess champion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship

Originally posted by Rajk999
It still makes no sense. If the eating of beef causes lives of sorrow and both population and consumption of beef has been increasing rapidly in the last few decades, then those sorrowful lives [in whatever form] should be apparent.

Hindus should be living happy lives as there is almost no beef eating in India. But the opposite appears to be the case agai ...[text shortened]... e countries which has experienced the most abject poverty and suffering in the last few decades.

I don't want to be cast in the role of apologist for the Vedic belief system, being relatively uneducated in it. In a way, you are asking, why is there not more suffering here and now, if meat-eating brings Karmic suffering to those who practice it. Their belief system doesn't allow for the kind of book-balancing that Christianity does, where the big cowpie in the sky awaits those who sin and do not repent, so shouldn't there be more Karmic suffering now?

At least that's how I see your question. It's a fair question, and I am not the one to answer it. My own generic take on it is that the Eastern traditions have been around for a long time and just like the Western, probably have answers that are satisfactory to the followers. But they are probably not satisfactory to anyone else.

Originally posted by RJHinds
India has nuclear weapons and nuclear power to supply the peoples energy needs. They also have the current world chess champion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship

Is that a rebuttal to my statement that India is a poor country?

Originally posted by JS357
I don't want to be cast in the role of apologist for the Vedic belief system, being relatively uneducated in it. In a way, you are asking, why is there not more suffering here and now, if meat-eating brings Karmic suffering to those who practice it. Their belief system doesn't allow for the kind of book-balancing that Christianity does, where the big cowpie in ...[text shortened]... t are satisfactory to the followers. But they are probably not satisfactory to anyone else.

OK. Maybe Dasa will comment. 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is that a rebuttal to my statement that India is a poor country?

I just wanted to point out that India is not a backward country with all poor
people. I think many of them enjoy life just as people do in other countries.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I just wanted to point out that India is not a backward country with all poor
people. I think many of them enjoy life just as people do in other countries.

Did anyone say they were all poor people?

Originally posted by JS357
I don't want to be cast in the role of apologist for the Vedic belief system, being relatively uneducated in it. In a way, you are asking, why is there not more suffering here and now, if meat-eating brings Karmic suffering to those who practice it. Their belief system doesn't allow for the kind of book-balancing that Christianity does, where the big cowpie in t are satisfactory to the followers. But they are probably not satisfactory to anyone else.

I think you answered those questions well.
Reincarnation is such a tricky subject and is not at all as clear as Dasa would make out.
Its a subject that takes much study for an easterner let alone a westerner.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did anyone say they were all poor people?

You seem to be saying that poor people were unhappy whereas the opposite has be shown to be true.
A lot of westerners with their wealth and consumer society are actually having problems such as mid-life crisis, obesety, depression and other mental problems, all sorts of power struggles and inconsistent unbalanced systems.
In a way you could say that the simple poor life of an Indian is prolly more happier in general than one of the over-complexified westerner with his/her gadgets , cars and whatnots.

You could even say that the sorry people that have reincarnated with more bad karma have ended up in places such as the US - unable to see their own toes while thinking that they should be waited on hand and foot by the primitive locals 😕

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You seem to be saying that poor people were unhappy whereas the opposite has be shown to be true.
A lot of westerners with their wealth and consumer society are actually having problems such as mid-life crisis, obesety, depression and other mental problems, all sorts of power struggles and inconsistent unbalanced systems.
In a way you could say that ...[text shortened]... r own toes while thinking that they should be waited on hand and foot by the primitive locals 😕

You need to read a bit more if you really think that the US has more unhappy/suffering people than India.

Dont confuse contentment with poverty. A poor content man could be very happy. Happiness has very little to do with material wealth. But poverty when it means you cannot feed or clothe or buy essentials for your family leads to unhappiness and suffering.

Check and see how many people live below the poverty line in India.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You need to read a bit more if you really think that the US has more unhappy/suffering people than India.

Dont confuse contentment with poverty. A poor content man could be very happy. Happiness has very little to do with material wealth. But poverty when it means you cannot feed or clothe or buy essentials for your family leads to unhappiness and suffering.

Check and see how many people live below the poverty line in India.

Indeed.

It has been shown that statistically increased wealth does increase happiness... up to a point.

Once you reach something like $40,000 per person (or per family, I don't remember the numbers
off the top of my head but where the line is is not important for this discussion) then the gains
in happiness with increased wealth disappear or are very marginal and are replaced by other factors.

However below this limit as you head towards real poverty, how much wealth you have does have
a huge impact on your happiness... (as well as all sorts of other factors like health).

There are of course all kinds of factors that influence an individuals happiness and it is certainly possible
to be poor and happy or rich and unhappy.

But statistically there are huge benefits from moving people out of poverty and into what we would refer
to as middle class.


India as a nation has vast numbers of people who must by any sensible measure be regarded as being
in poverty and as a proportion of the population that number if higher than most of the western world.

Which is born out by such indexes and the GDP per capita and the like.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did anyone say they were all poor people?

Perhaps I misunderstood your intentions.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You need to read a bit more if you really think that the US has more unhappy/suffering people than India.

Dont confuse contentment with poverty. A poor content man could be very happy. Happiness has very little to do with material wealth. But poverty when it means you cannot feed or clothe or buy essentials for your family leads to unhappiness and suffering.

Check and see how many people live below the poverty line in India.

I know what I'm talking about. A generalization it is, no doubt, but I live below the poverty line here in australia and I can tell you I am more happy than the average joe out there who has a nice car and a mac and is paying of a nice beachside house with a boat,etc,etc.

I'm not saying you can live on nothing, but you can live on little and be absolutely content and beaming on the inside as you take pleasure in the finer things in life - all of which are free

Originally posted by googlefudge
Indeed.

It has been shown that statistically increased wealth does increase happiness... up to a point.

Once you reach something like $40,000 per person (or per family, I don't remember the numbers
off the top of my head but where the line is is not important for this discussion) then the gains
in happiness with increased wealth disappea ...[text shortened]... of the western world.

Which is born out by such indexes and the GDP per capita and the like.

I'm hoping things will level up a little more as we begin to realize that capitalism is not the best system.
After all in a group full of charitable , intelligent human beings, I suspect that the wealth would balance out a bit more and that one man would not want to be living next door to another man (and his family) while the other man had no food.
Of course human nature also has a tendency towards sliding to the lowest common denominator . (I think its called "food stamps" in the US and the dole in the UK and Australia)

Originally posted by Rajk999
You need to read a bit more if you really think that the US has more unhappy/suffering people than India.

Dont confuse contentment with poverty. A poor content man could be very happy. Happiness has very little to do with material wealth. But poverty when it means you cannot feed or clothe or buy essentials for your family leads to unhappiness and suffering.

Check and see how many people live below the poverty line in India.

Read more?

Maybe thats why your views are a bit askew.
Shouldn't I need to see people first hand and avoid the tabloid and statistical reading which often paints a different picture to the actual reality.

I know one hindu (not personally) over here who lives on 30 cents a day. He is said to be a very happy man.

Originally posted by Dasa
Not true - and I will amaze everyone when I get to Sydney with the wonderful answer to this baiting question question.

48 Hrs have gone. We are waiting to be amazed.