1. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    08 May '08 03:20
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    40 million maybe? for you guys too. we could add that to your religion.
    And they say Christian charity is dead!
  2. Meddling with things
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    08 May '08 07:15
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    So we've established that morality has nothing to do with whether you believe in god or not?

    Atheists and those who believe in most likely fictitious omniscient beings can all be evil.

    So what's new?

    Although, I'd argue that Stalin for the most part did not kill in the name of atheism, although he was a murderous arseface.
    Interestingly, Stalin trained in a seminary. So we can chalk his victims up to the religious mindset
  3. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    08 May '08 07:18
    Originally posted by aardvarkhome
    Interestingly, Stalin trained in a seminary. So we can chalk his victims up to the religious mindset
    I guess he was learning his brutality from the old masters.
  4. Subscribershavixmir
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    08 May '08 07:27
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Although the abortion call was a bit harsh, dontcha think?
    Nope. Just right, if you ask me.
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    08 May '08 07:491 edit
    Hitler:
    "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."


    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

    (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
  6. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    08 May '08 08:25
    Originally posted by PawnChop
    Hitler:
    "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."


    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what ...[text shortened]... Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
    Ah, but Pawnchop, I think you're letting Hitler's own words fool you into thinking that he actually believes what he says he does.

    I mean who's this Hitler guy to go around actually TELLING us what he believes?! Nope, it's up to the Christian brethren on THIS VERY SITE to determine Hitler's beliefs, not him.

    😞
  7. The sky
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    08 May '08 08:35
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    How long did it take you to type out this post, RB? A minute? There goes another minute of your life. Gone forever. Go share your faith whale. You still have time!
    Amen and reamen, brother!

    I am quite sure no Faith Whalist has ever killed a person. If everybody would turn to Faith Whalism, the world would be a better place.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    08 May '08 08:47
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Ah, but Pawnchop, I think you're letting Hitler's own words fool you into thinking that he actually believes what he says he does.
    Whether Hitler believed what he was saying or not doesn't matter. In terms of politics, his style of politics, the classical Machiavellian strain with a modern media infusion, plays to the audience: their susceptibility, not his, is what counts. In terms of religion, it can easily be shown that his speech goes against the grain of Christ's reported teachings. Clearly, though, neither Hitler nor his nominally Christian auditors had much interest in what Christ had to say, preferring to use him as a voodoo doll.

    I wish people would stop using Hitler to bash religion and examine his unparalleled grasp of mob psychology more closely. Alternatively, look at Mao. How did he instill such fanaticism in his followers without using religion as a prop (in every sense of the word)?
  9. The sky
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    08 May '08 09:04
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Whether Hitler believed what he was saying or not doesn't matter. In terms of politics, his style of politics, the classical Machiavellian strain with a modern media infusion, plays to the audience: their susceptibility, not his, is what counts. In terms of religion, it can easily be shown that his speech goes against the grain of Christ's reported tea ...[text shortened]... auditors had much interest in what Christ had to say, preferring to use him as a voodoo doll.
    Indeed. He needed the support of the church, and the church was happy to oblige for the most part because it gave them more power. In some private conversations he showed a quite different view (I'll find some sources for that later if I can be bothered).
  10. Cape Town
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    08 May '08 09:35
    The fact is that Hitler killed Jews 'in the name of Christianity'. Whether he believed what he said is another matter.

    RBHill claimed that the Communists he listed killed 'in the name of atheism' yet he has provided no evidence whatsoever for such a claim.
    Does anyone have any reference to any speech by an atheist communist leader that supports RBHills claim?
  11. Standard membercaissad4
    Child of the Novelty
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    08 May '08 09:54
    How many of the native peoples of Central and South America were mercilessly butchered by the "Christian" Spaniards in the name of their god ?? It is in the millions.
    Languages and cultures were almost completely destroyed. Even the Spanish language was forced upon these native peoples under pain of death. Little wonder that present day Mayans are re-learning their native language.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    08 May '08 09:56
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The fact is that Hitler killed Jews 'in the name of Christianity'. Whether he believed what he said is another matter.

    RBHill claimed that the Communists he listed killed 'in the name of atheism' yet he has provided no evidence whatsoever for such a claim.
    Does anyone have any reference to any speech by an atheist communist leader that supports RBHills claim?
    "The more representatives from the reactionary clergy and the recalcitrant bourgeoisie we shoot," Lenin wrote in March of 1922, "the better it will be for us. We must teach these people a lesson as quickly as possible, so that the thought of protesting again doesn't occur to them for decades to come." http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2000/March_2000_4.html
  13. Cape Town
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    08 May '08 10:26
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    "The more representatives from the reactionary clergy and the recalcitrant bourgeoisie we shoot," Lenin wrote in March of 1922, "the better it will be for us. We must teach these people a lesson as quickly as possible, so that the thought of protesting again doesn't occur to them for decades to come." http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2000/March_2000_4.html
    I don't think that supports his claim but rather contradicts his claim. It shows that Lenin was not killing 'in the name of atheism' but as a deterrent to protest action.
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    08 May '08 10:36
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't think that supports his claim but rather contradicts his claim. It shows that Lenin was not killing 'in the name of atheism' but as a deterrent to protest action.
    You're nit-picking. Atheism was official Soviet ideology; opposing ideologies were to be rooted out; Christians, Jews and others were eliminated precisely because their ideologies opposed that of the state (and were therefore likely to lead to protest action). I get the feeling you aren't going to be satisfied until someone produces a speech that says "Kill them in the name of atheism!"
  15. Cape Town
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    08 May '08 11:08
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    You're nit-picking. Atheism was official Soviet ideology;
    Let me demonstrate nit-picking: Atheism was not official Soviet ideology - communism (of which atheism was a part) was official Soviet ideology.

    opposing ideologies were to be rooted out; Christians, Jews and others were eliminated precisely because their ideologies opposed that of the state (and were therefore likely to lead to protest action).
    Note the mention of bourgeoisie in your quote which makes it clear they are dealing with opponents of communism not specifically opponents of atheism.

    I get the feeling you aren't going to be satisfied until someone produces a speech that says "Kill them in the name of atheism!"
    Or something with a similar meaning as that is the claim made by RBHill. If Hitler had never once made reference to his religion as a reason for persecuting Jews then we would be wrong to claim he did it 'in the name of Christianity' wouldn't we?

    To do something 'in the name of' a cause or religion or ideology etc is to publicly put forward that as the reason for your actions. For example the US started the war in Iraq 'in the name of Democracy' or 'in the name of morality' or whatever reasons they gave. The true reason may have been about securing oil resources or helping Israel etc but even if you show conclusively that that was the case it would be incorrect to claim that they did it 'in the name of' oil or 'in the name of' Israel.
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