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Originally posted by Palynkawould evidence that something else happend/existed (where the two are mutually exclusive) be evidence of absence. for example, the world works on rules which we can determine which explain how everything works thus leaving no room for god?
Absence of evidence is the only evidence of absence.
27 Jul 06
Originally posted by googlefudgeI'd say one cannot prove with certainty the whole system from within it therefore one should search for evidence, not proof.
would evidence that something else happend/existed (where the two are mutually exclusive) be evidence of absence. for example, the world works on rules which we can determine which explain how everything works thus leaving no room for god?
27 Jul 06
Originally posted by googlefudgeSimply because one cannot account for ALL particles and ALL relations between them. Therefore, induction is possible but not deduction.
where in my sentence did I use the word proof?
And why don't you think you can determine everything about the universe from inside it?
I thought "leaving no room for God" meant proving he didn't exist... If not, please explain how it isn't.
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Originally posted by PalynkaIf you could explain all phenomena one encounters by applying physics, chemistry and biology and any other physical science being applications of physics, and if you could explain using the 'laws' of physics to explain where everything came to be (by natural causes), then where does that leave god? All phenomena we encounter occur naturally and predictably, and our existence can be explained without a creator then god does not run the universe (does not control or influence it) and god did not create the universe, then what is left? That is what I mean when I say there is no room for god (and is incidentally why evolution is so disliked by religion, It removes god from the day to day running of the world, so if evolution is true, why worship a god that at best simply started the whole thing off then wandered off to have a 13 billion year smoke. there is just no room for god in modern science (the few places where people try to fit god just keep vanishing as we explain them naturally)).
I thought "leaving no room for God" meant proving he didn't exist... If not, please explain how it isn't.
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Originally posted by Palynkanot nesercerily agreeing with your conclusion but how would that be different if you were 'outside'the universe? which incidentaly is cotradictory since universe means everything, thus there can be no outside.
[b]Simply because one cannot account for ALL particles and ALL relations between them. Therefore, induction is possible but not deduction.
[b]
27 Jul 06
Originally posted by googlefudgeI never said otherwise, but you are talking about induction, not deduction.
if you could explain all phenomena one encounters by applying physics, chemistry and biology and any other physical science being aplications of physics, and if you could explain using the 'laws' of physics to explain where everything came to be (by natural causes), then where does that leave god? all phenomena we encounter occur naturaly and predictably ...[text shortened]... e (the few places where people try to fit god just keep vaniching as we explain them naturaly)
All natural sciences are ultimately inductive. Put in a simple way, most of the processes of deduction are during scientific experiments and applied to samples. The need to extrapolate the results to the universe outside the sample is inductive, the assumption that it has worked that way so it will continue to do so. The evidence collected afterwards that things indeed seem to function in a certain way does not constitute proof, only further evidence.
This is exactly why I think science is needed. Proof is hard to get and usually impossible if the universe (in statistical terms) is large enough. So we need an efficient way to collect evidence and induce useful conclusions about our universe.
So yes, I think there will always be "room" for God, but the more (absence of) evidence we collect, the smaller the "room" would become. I'm an atheist because I feel that "room" is already small enough.
27 Jul 06
Originally posted by googlefudgeFrom inside our universe there aren't enough particles to allow accounting for all particles in our universe.
not nesercerily agreeing with your conclusion but how would that be different if you were 'outside'the universe? which incidentaly is cotradictory since universe means everything, thus there can be no outside.
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27 Jul 06
Originally posted by PalynkaI disagree with that analysis of science but concentrating on the 'room for god' aspect, you don't need to prove there is no god, for every point/particle in the universe. You only need (for the moment) that there is no god controlling the earth and surrounding solar system. Other things like proof that all of our experiences/feelings and thoughts are explained by the physical properties of the brain and that there is no 'soul' or 'spirit' would also remove all point in the belief in god. These should both be possible in the future (both theoretically and practically).
I never said otherwise, but you are talking about induction, not deduction.
All natural sciences are ultimately inductive. Put in a simple way, most of the processes of deduction are during scientific experiments and applied to samples. The need to extrapolate the results to the universe outside the sample is inductive, the assumption that it has worked t ...[text shortened]... e "room" would become. I'm an atheist because I feel that "room" is already small enough.
We have already gone way past the point at which you say, it is beyond any reasonable doubt that there is no supernatural being guiding or influencing events on earth and there is considerable (though not 100% proof positive) that all of our thoughts can be explained solely physically and so whatever gap in physics that people try to fit god into to fit with this leaves god being a fairly pointless and pathetic being.
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27 Jul 06
Originally posted by PalynkaHowever you are still left with the logical fallacy that by definition there can be no outside.
From inside our universe there aren't enough particles to allow accounting for all particles in our universe.
Incidentally the Auditors from the discworld spring to mind at this point.