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It is easier to simply withhold information or only give a partial answer that is correct. Where is the empirical evidence of these duress situations? The martyrs are commended for speaking the truth no matter the circumstances they were in. The evidence is in the church.
Originally posted by FMFYou can certainly lose your salvation if you renounce it yourself. Don't be dense.
[b]Scenario: FMF renounces his faith in Jesus Christ.
Grampy Bobby: "Salvation is executed by God the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith in Christ. Some believers grow in grace out of infancy to maturity; others lose their way with confused daily priorities. None lose their salvation. Why? Because it didn't depend on them in the first place. They accepted ...[text shortened]... en for thinking you just like the sound of your own pronouncements, regardless of their content.[/b]
Originally posted by SuzianneWhat do you make of Grampy Bobby's assertion that my salvation is "permanent" regardless. He said: "None lose their salvation. Why? Because it didn't depend on them in the first place. They accepted a gift. Christ's work of propitiation on the cross and spiritual birth are permanent." Why is it me you are calling "dense" and not your fellow Christian?
You can certainly lose your salvation if you renounce it yourself. Don't be dense.
Originally posted by Of Ants and ImpsWhere is the empirical evidence that "renouncing Jesus", theologically speaking, leads to the renouncer being "separated forever" from "God" and his "family"?
Where is the emperical evidence of these duress situations? It is easier to simply withhold information or only give a partial answer that is correct. The martyrs are commended for speaking the truth no matter the circumstances they were in. The evidence is in the church.
Originally posted by FMFIf someone is holding a gun to you or to them, the decision to not be killed has already been taken from you. Absolutely nothing you do or say (short of deadly force or the threat thereof) is going to convince the one holding the gun not to use it. It's not your decision. What don't you get about that?
What about the responsibility for the lives of others who might be killed?
Originally posted by FMFRead what you just typed. If you accept the gift, it cannot be taken from you unless you renounce the gift. It really is fairly simple. Unrepentant sin is a dealbreaker for everyone, including "Christians".
What do you make of Grampy Bobby's assertion that my salvation is "permanent" regardless. He said: "None lose their salvation. Why? Because it didn't depend on them in the first place. They accepted a gift. Christ's work of propitiation on the cross and spiritual birth are permanent." Why is it me you are calling "dense" and not your fellow Christian?
Originally posted by SuzianneBut Grampy Bobby has told me that I cannot lose my "salvation" even though I have renounced my belief in Jesus. Why is it you are calling me "dense" and not the fellow Christian whose beliefs contradict yours?
Read what you just typed. If you accept the gift, it cannot be taken from you unless you renounce the gift. It really is fairly simple. Unrepentant sin is a dealbreaker for everyone, including "Christians".
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Originally posted by FMFMaybe he's lying, maybe he believes it. That's not for me to decide.
Has Grampy Bobby lied to me by telling me I cannot lose my salvation even though I have renounced my belief in Jesus Christ?
I believe you threw away your salvation the moment you renounced your salvation. You rejected Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Yes, what you say does matter.
Why don't you ask him directly what he believes about this (instead of trying to infer it)? I imagine he is far better equipped to tell you what he thinks than I am.
Originally posted by SuzianneBut this cannot be what Grampy Bobby meant when he said that he'd rather die than renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, even if death would be brutal and administered at the hands of a radicalized terrorist. If there is no choice about whether to renounce his faith in the face of the threat of death, then Grampy Bobby's scenario makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
If someone is holding a gun to you or to them, the decision to not be killed has already been taken from you. Absolutely nothing you do or say (short of deadly force or the threat thereof) is going to convince the one holding the gun not to use it. It's not your decision. What don't you get about that?
Originally posted by FMFBut YOU are the one who changed the specifics of his scenario.
But this cannot be what Grampy Bobby meant when he said that he'd rather die than renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, even if death would be brutal and administered at the hands of a radicalized terrorist. If there is no choice about whether to renounce his faith in the face of the threat of death, then Grampy Bobby's scenario makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Originally posted by SuzianneBut he has told me and you and everyone what he believes and has done so explicitly. And it is very different from what you believe. Why are you not confronting him about it and instead using me as a proxy through which to disagree with him?
Why don't you ask him directly what he believes about this (instead of trying to infer it)? I imagine he is far better equipped to tell you what he thinks than I am.