It is easier to simply withhold information or only give a partial answer that is correct. Where is the empirical evidence of these duress situations? The martyrs are commended for speaking the truth no matter the circumstances they were in. The evidence is in the church.
Originally posted by FMF [b]Scenario: FMF renounces his faith in Jesus Christ.
Grampy Bobby: "Salvation is executed by God the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith in Christ. Some believers grow in grace out of infancy to maturity; others lose their way with confused daily priorities. None lose their salvation. Why? Because it didn't depend on them in the first place. They accepted ...[text shortened]... en for thinking you just like the sound of your own pronouncements, regardless of their content.[/b]
You can certainly lose your salvation if you renounce it yourself. Don't be dense.
Originally posted by Suzianne You can certainly lose your salvation if you renounce it yourself. Don't be dense.
What do you make of Grampy Bobby's assertion that my salvation is "permanent" regardless. He said: "None lose their salvation. Why? Because it didn't depend on them in the first place. They accepted a gift. Christ's work of propitiation on the cross and spiritual birth are permanent." Why is it me you are calling "dense" and not your fellow Christian?
Originally posted by Of Ants and Imps Where is the emperical evidence of these duress situations? It is easier to simply withhold information or only give a partial answer that is correct. The martyrs are commended for speaking the truth no matter the circumstances they were in. The evidence is in the church.
Where is the empirical evidence that "renouncing Jesus", theologically speaking, leads to the renouncer being "separated forever" from "God" and his "family"?
Originally posted by FMF What about the responsibility for the lives of others who might be killed?
If someone is holding a gun to you or to them, the decision to not be killed has already been taken from you. Absolutely nothing you do or say (short of deadly force or the threat thereof) is going to convince the one holding the gun not to use it. It's not your decision. What don't you get about that?
Originally posted by FMF What do you make of Grampy Bobby's assertion that my salvation is "permanent" regardless. He said: "None lose their salvation. Why? Because it didn't depend on them in the first place. They accepted a gift. Christ's work of propitiation on the cross and spiritual birth are permanent." Why is it me you are calling "dense" and not your fellow Christian?
Read what you just typed. If you accept the gift, it cannot be taken from you unless you renounce the gift. It really is fairly simple. Unrepentant sin is a dealbreaker for everyone, including "Christians".
Originally posted by Suzianne Read what you just typed. If you accept the gift, it cannot be taken from you unless you renounce the gift. It really is fairly simple. Unrepentant sin is a dealbreaker for everyone, including "Christians".
But Grampy Bobby has told me that I cannot lose my "salvation" even though I have renounced my belief in Jesus. Why is it you are calling me "dense" and not the fellow Christian whose beliefs contradict yours?
Originally posted by FMF Has Grampy Bobby lied to me by telling me I cannot lose my salvation even though I have renounced my belief in Jesus Christ?
Maybe he's lying, maybe he believes it. That's not for me to decide.
I believe you threw away your salvation the moment you renounced your salvation. You rejected Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Yes, what you say does matter.
Why don't you ask him directly what he believes about this (instead of trying to infer it)? I imagine he is far better equipped to tell you what he thinks than I am.
Originally posted by Suzianne If someone is holding a gun to you or to them, the decision to not be killed has already been taken from you. Absolutely nothing you do or say (short of deadly force or the threat thereof) is going to convince the one holding the gun not to use it. It's not your decision. What don't you get about that?
But this cannot be what Grampy Bobby meant when he said that he'd rather die than renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, even if death would be brutal and administered at the hands of a radicalized terrorist. If there is no choice about whether to renounce his faith in the face of the threat of death, then Grampy Bobby's scenario makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Originally posted by Suzianne I believe you threw away your salvation the moment you renounced your salvation. You rejected Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Yes, what you say does matter.
So Grampy Bobby is wrong in his interpretation of this matter?
Originally posted by FMF But this cannot be what Grampy Bobby meant when he said that he'd rather die than renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, even if death would be brutal and administered at the hands of a radicalized terrorist. If there is no choice about whether to renounce his faith in the face of the threat of death, then Grampy Bobby's scenario makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
But YOU are the one who changed the specifics of his scenario.
Originally posted by Suzianne Why don't you ask him directly what he believes about this (instead of trying to infer it)? I imagine he is far better equipped to tell you what he thinks than I am.
But he has told me and you and everyone what he believes and has done so explicitly. And it is very different from what you believe. Why are you not confronting him about it and instead using me as a proxy through which to disagree with him?
Originally posted by Suzianne But YOU are the one who changed the specifics of his scenario.
If you don't want to or can't answer the scenario I presented, that's fine. The way you are interpreting Grampy Bobby's scenario renders it meaningless.
15 Oct '14 23:13
Things You'd Rather Die Than Do
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