Originally posted by lucifershammer
v: [b]Maybe we need to revise our understanding of the mystical…

I don't think so. My view is that you can be spiritual without being mystical; i.e. mysticism is one form of spirituality. There are others - as I believe my grandmother's life denotes. She does not experience the "what is out there" of mysticism directly, nor does she seek to.

She's my maternal grandmother.[/b]

It seems that you’re taking “spiritual” as a kind of stance or attitude toward life—i.e., as something more than a belief, in the “thinking” sense of that term—something, let’s say, existentially deeper…?

The following was bbarr’s comment in the “strawman” thread, where I was wondering if the term “spiritual” needed to entail the supernatural.

“If 'spiritual' means, for instance, that one is interested in exploring the nature of the real, or the nature of human consciousness, or in the nature of a flourishing human life, then these all seem like legitimate uses of the term.”

I’m not arguing—and I think I see the distinction you’re making—but I’m interested in your definition (as opposed to a dictionary definition) of “spiritual.”

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have met people who carry a Bible under thier arm all the time, can quote hundreds of passages word for word, and insist the King James Version was written by King James himself and is the only "true" Bible.
Is this person "religious" or "spiritual" or just a little looney?

I think if there was a god and he was judging two people, going through there lives.If one was a christian who thought he lived the perfect chriatian life always in church but he never helped people in need he was greedy, ignorant. The other person was not a chrisian had never been to church but instead was very kind caring did charitry work. The non christian would be higher in gods eyes. i think there are more improtant things to define a person then if they can quote the bible or to be honest there religion.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you think Jesus was spiritual his whole life according to scripture?
Do you think Jesus was Holy his whole life according to scripture?

If so, would you think it odd that he could live the first years of his
life among people and many thought of him as just a good man
before his ministry started? Spirituality doesn't have to mean a
mystical life ...[text shortened]... one to another day in and
day out. That is true spirituality, true obedience to Christ.
Kelly

That's helpful--although my usage of the term "mystical" has been nearly synonymous with "a spiritual experience in knowing God," leaving aside for the moment what is meant by "God."

Originally posted by Omnislash
Lol, you raise a good point here. Indeed, I must concede that spirituality has little/no necessary connection with knowledge.

That said, how about 'religious', assuming we cleanly clarify that the two terms mean very different things?

That said, how about 'religious', assuming we cleanly clarify that the two terms mean very different things?

I guess there should always be a striving towards perfection...

Originally posted by vistesd
I’m not arguing—and I think I see the distinction you’re making—but I’m interested in your definition (as opposed to a dictionary definition) of “spiritual.”

(Why do all your questions have to be so bl**dy difficult?! 😀)

bbarr:If 'spiritual' means, for instance, that one is interested in exploring the nature of the real, or the nature of human consciousness, or in the nature of a flourishing human life, then these all seem like legitimate uses of the term

vistesd:It seems that you’re taking “spiritual” as a kind of stance or attitude toward life—i.e., as something more than a belief, in the “thinking” sense of that term—something, let’s say, existentially deeper…?

For me, the simplest definition of 'spirituality' is that it is a mode of communing with God. Of course, this definition doesn't really work with atheists. I guess there's still some work to be done in finding a common understanding. Perhaps it might help if I listed what I consider to be some of the key elements of spirituality:

1. Spirituality is transcendental. All forms of spirituality recognise that there is more to reality than just what is material and empirical.

2. Spirituality is relevant. It has the potential to affect all aspects of our life - even when we're shopping for eggs at the supermarket.

3. Spirituality is necessary. I think we cannot become better, happier, more fulfilled without some form of spirituality in our lives.

4. Spirituality is varied. Every act (even the act of being) has to it a spiritual element and we can be spiritual in anything we do.

5. Spirituality is instructive. It teaches us something about ourselsves, the world, reality and Being.

I've tried to be as doctrine-neutral as possible in listing these elements.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
(Why do all your questions have to be so bl**dy difficult?! 😀)

bbarr:[b]If 'spiritual' means, for instance, that one is interested in exploring the nature of the real, or the nature of human consciousness, or in the nature of a flourishing human life, then these all seem like legitimate uses of the term

vistesd:It seems that you’re tak ...[text shortened]... ality and Being.

I've tried to be as doctrine-neutral as possible in listing these elements.

I've tried to be as doctrine-neutral as possible in listing these elements.

And I think you succeeded brilliantly! 🙂 The only one I really have to think about is “necessary:” it seems so in my life, though…

Originally posted by lucifershammer
For me, the simplest definition of 'spirituality' is that it is a mode of communing with God. Of course, this definition doesn't really work with atheists.

To make atheists happy you could try substituting "the Universe", "universal mind" or simply "everything that is" in place of "God". Of course I'm not an atheist so I may be off the money.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
To make atheists happy you could try substituting "the Universe", "universal mind" or simply "everything that is" in place of "God". Of course I'm not an atheist so I may be off the money.

I don't think "the Universe" (and maybe not "everything that is" ) would work - spirituality has to transcend material reality in my view.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I don't think "the Universe" (and maybe not "everything that is"😉 would work - spirituality has to transcend material reality in my view.

Are you an atheist?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Are you an atheist?

Is that a trick question? 😕

Obviously, not.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Obviously, not.

Let's see how the atheists like my definition.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religious

Synonyms: religious, devout, pious
These adjectives mean having or showing a belief in and veneration for God or a divine power, especially as it is reflected in the practice of religion. Religious implies adherence to religion in both belief and practice: The cathedral at Chartres is an ex ...[text shortened]... reverential discharge of religious duties: a pious woman who attends Mass every morning.

so based on this dictionary definition why do you state "Being religious is not just about what you know and what you do, but also why you do it."

Being religious does not imply knowledge of what or why but rather the adherence. In fact adherence to a particular practice goes hand in hand with ignorance of the meaning and origin of the practice as often as not.

Originally posted by twhitehead
so based on this dictionary definition why do you state [b]"Being religious is not just about what you know and what you do, but also why you do it."[/b]

Because you can be a master theologian and still not be religious.

Because you can attend Mass every Sunday and still not be religious.

Being religious is about belief (not knowledge) and practice.

I'm not sure what our point of disagreement is - are you picking a fight just for the heck of it?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Because you can be a master theologian and still not be religious.

Because you can attend Mass every Sunday and still not be religious.

Being religious is about belief (not knowledge) and practice.

I'm not sure what our point of disagreement is - are you picking a fight just for the heck of it?

No I wasnt trying to pick a fight but rather just clarify your definition. I agree with your above post in general but in earlier posts you implied that knowledge was important to be religous. I would still allow a much looser definition of religious to include anyone who follows a religion depending on the context in which it is used.
If I made a statement that religious people should learn about thier religion I am refering to anyone who claims to follow a religion.
If I say that my friend is religous I would imply that he takes his religion more seriously than the average person.

Originally posted by vistesd
That's helpful--although my usage of the term "mystical" has been nearly synonymous with "a spiritual experience in knowing God," leaving aside for the moment what is meant by "God."

If you don't know who or what God is than how can you experience Him, Her or It ? How do you know it is God you are experiencing ? It could be something else ........