To sonship, on abortion

Originally posted by CalJust
Looks like this one has the Fundamentalist Club stumped?

No takers?

🙁

Abortion is wrong, it is child sacrifice on the alter of convenience, nothing more nothing less. Not all... Just most.

I recently read in China, with their 1 child policy, 400 million abortions have occurred. Some statistics for the US put it at 56 million since roe v. Wade.

The issue here, correctly... Is man and his indifference to his creator... Not whether unborn babies go to heaven. Who goes to heaven is not in our realm of decision, but God's.

You guys who want to argue/debate abortion in terms of babies going to heaven (if they go to heaven), whether abortion is right or wrong (what of 'medical' reasons?), one's personal life and the inconvenience it would pose, etc. etc. etc. are missing the point completely. Where are you spending eternity, will it be in life or death?

Life is about God's love and how we will respond, quite frankly don't we ever get tired of talking about the same things over and over and over again in this forum? Doesn't it get exhausting for all. Choose life!

Originally posted by yoctobyte
Abortion is wrong, it is child sacrifice on the alter of convenience, nothing more nothing less. Not all... Just most.

I recently read in China, with their 1 child policy, 400 million abortions have occurred. Some statistics for the US put it at 56 million since roe v. Wade.

The issue here, correctly... Is man and his indifference to his creator... ...[text shortened]... gs over and over and over again in this forum? Doesn't it get exhausting for all. Choose life!

Well stated! 🙂

Actually, this thread us NOT about abortion!

I made it crystal clear in my OP that it is wrong.

This thread is actually about the inconsistencies inherent in the slanderous doctrine of Eternal Punishment.

My entire point (which has not been engaged, not to mention answered) is that according to Hellfire doctrine, a very large per centage of aborted babies would be better off than if THEY HAD BEEN BORN, and then afterwards ended up in hell.

THAT is the conundrum for Hellfire preachers.

I believe that all life is sacred, and that abortion is wrong, so don't come with that pov again. Answer the issue that I raised.

Originally posted by CalJust
Sorry, I assumed that it was a commonly understood term. Let's take it step by step.

1. When a newborn baby dies, it goes straight to heaven, no questions asked. Hasn't sinned yet, cannot be punished. Right?

2. When an adult dies, who is not "saved", he/she will go to hell, right?

3. So in between, there is a point in time when Free Will kicks in. S ...[text shortened]... right, which is not send anybody to such a dreadful place. How could you ever have thought it?!

AOA is different for all persons.

Originally posted by RBHILL
AOA is different for all persons.

Your point being?

It is at least more than six months old, I would suggest?

The actual value is immaterial, it is somewhere between birth and adulthood.

Originally posted by CalJust
Actually, this thread us NOT about abortion!

I made it crystal clear in my OP that it is wrong.

This thread is actually about the inconsistencies inherent in the slanderous doctrine of Eternal Punishment.

My entire point (which has not been engaged, not to mention answered) is that according to Hellfire doctrine, a very large per centage of aborted ...[text shortened]... , and that abortion is wrong, so don't come with that pov again. Answer the issue that I raised.

I do not believe in eternal hellfire, but to your question...
You are assuming babies go to heaven or hell, I do not see that in the bible.
At the worst, I believe they will cease to exist. The best case scenario is they will be resurrected and end up in the new heaven and earth.
When people die, including babies and Christians they go in the grave.
Only at the resurrection will all be dealt with accordingly.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I do not believe in eternal hellfire, but to your question...
You are assuming babies go to heaven or hell, I do not see that in the bible..

Mainline Christian doctrine says babies, and small children under the age of accountability will go to heaven.

"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".

If you don't believe in eternal hellfire, then this is not a problem for you.

However, I see a huge problem for those who believe in hell, if there are children (or ageless souls) in heaven which were aborted on earth (or, for that matter, died as young children) when they see that their family, even mother and father, who grew up normally, ended up on hell. Then they will realise - if it wasn't for my early death, my life cut short, that could have been me frying.

If you ponder this situation, then something's got to give, and it will be the hellfire doctrine.

Originally posted by CalJust
Actually, this thread us NOT about abortion!

I made it crystal clear in my OP that it is wrong.

This thread is actually about the inconsistencies inherent in the slanderous doctrine of Eternal Punishment.

My entire point (which has not been engaged, not to mention answered) is that according to Hellfire doctrine, a very large per centage of aborted ...[text shortened]... , and that abortion is wrong, so don't come with that pov again. Answer the issue that I raised.

No one who believes in the existence of heaven and hell will tell you an aborted baby could end up in hell. A one or two year old would also not end up in hell and for the same reason... they are much too young to make the kind of decision about God we adults are expected to make. This doesn't mean it's okay to kill a baby no matter how old (or young) they are, or that killing is okay before they are born but not okay after birth. I've never understood the reasoning behind where that line can be legally or morally drawn. If it's supposed to be okay to kill 'em because they are not fully developed human beings, we can know that doesn't work because a two year (or even a young teenager) is not a fully developed human being.

Convenience wasn't considered to be a valid reason when abortion was first legalized but today it is, and this illustrates how a diminishing moral conscience can quickly evolve downward once something like this becomes socially acceptable. It's chilling to know that for some people it's much more convenient to kill someone you don't see than it is to kill someone you can see.

Originally posted by CalJust
Actually, this thread us NOT about abortion!

I made it crystal clear in my OP that it is wrong.

This thread is actually about the inconsistencies inherent in the slanderous doctrine of Eternal Punishment.

My entire point (which has not been engaged, not to mention answered) is that according to Hellfire doctrine, a very large per centage of aborted ...[text shortened]... , and that abortion is wrong, so don't come with that pov again. Answer the issue that I raised.

My entire point (which has not been engaged, not to mention answered) is that according to Hellfire doctrine, a very large per centage of aborted babies would be better off than if THEY HAD BEEN BORN, and then afterwards ended up in hell.

THAT is the conundrum for Hellfire preachers

This isn't a conundrum, this is you being offended by anyone believes there is a hell. I've never heard anyone who believes in the existence of hell say anything nearly as inflammatory as you saying aborted babies are better off dying young. The fact that they have a guaranteed place in heaven because they died young is not related to any decision they may have possibly made later in life if they had lived.

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]My entire point (which has not been engaged, not to mention answered) is that according to Hellfire doctrine, a very large per centage of aborted babies would be better off than if THEY HAD BEEN BORN, and then afterwards ended up in hell.

THAT is the conundrum for Hellfire preachers

This isn't a conundrum, this is you being offended by anyone ...[text shortened]... lated to any decision they may have possibly made later in life if they had lived.[/b]

Bravo!

Originally posted by lemon lime
I've never heard anyone who believes in the existence of hell say anything nearly as inflammatory as you saying aborted babies are better off dying young.

Of course not! It would cause too many problems for them to think about it! But that is no reason for YOU not to seriously ponder that question.

The fact that they have a guaranteed place in heaven because they died young is not related to any decision they made

True. But, given your hellfire scenario, I think every one of those babies will one day say:
"Thank God that I was never asked to make that choice, I could have muffed it and ended up THERE!"

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Caljust is clearly asking about the "souls" of babies after they die, Whodey. Either you answer his question or, if you can't muster the decency to stick to the topic at hand and feel like ranting about politics again, maybe do the respectful thing and just STFU.

You've made it abundantly clear that you simply refuse to answer critical questions, so why bother pretending?

Trying to decide who goes to heaven or hell is playing God. Why then do Christians engage in it?

I realize why left winged atheists engage in it, even though they don't believe in a God. It is because they feel the need to fill the apparent vacancy and dictate every aspect of our lives to us.

Originally posted by whodey
Trying to decide who goes to heaven or hell is playing God. Why then do Christians engage in it?

I agree with you on this. (With the exception that I would replace "heaven and hell" with "life after death"😉

However, would you dispute that many Christians on this forum, specifically sonship and RJH, regularly do just that? And tell us, on great authority who gets to go to hell?

Originally posted by whodey
Trying to decide who goes to heaven or hell is playing God.

No it isn't.

It is akin to lawyers interpreting the law handed down by the legislature.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
The issue here, correctly... Is man and his indifference to his creator... Not whether unborn babies go to heaven. Who goes to heaven is not in our realm of decision, but God's.

It is pretty easy to start your own thread if you don't like this one.

The "issue" is determined by the Opening Poster.