trinity revisited (for my own sake)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Sure thing, Deucer can i ask you something, can you explain the whole taking Jesus into your heart business. i would ask Jaywill but he is reticent of talking to me at the moment, i was gonna ask him but never got round to it. where is this idea in scripture?

that tends to be more conservative/evangelical semantics I suppose. The tradition I follow is that we confess Jesus Christ as Lord, confess our sins to him, and ask for forgiveness. Paul says in Romans that we need only confees with our lips and believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord and we will be saved. Perhaps a modern hermenuetics would reveal that if we confess with our lips and believe with our minds, may be more appropriate. The end result is the same I think.

Originally posted by duecer
that tends to be more conservative/evangelical semantics I suppose. The tradition I follow is that we confess Jesus Christ as Lord, confess our sins to him, and ask for forgiveness. Paul says in Romans that we need only confees with our lips and believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord and we will be saved. Perhaps a modern hermenuetics would reveal t ...[text shortened]... ur lips and believe with our minds, may be more appropriate. The end result is the same I think.

can you explain what these terms mean?

how do you confess the Christ?
why is belief enough?
do you really think that you are saved? if so, from what?

with forgiveness we can agree, the only difference being that we ask forgiveness of sins to God, through Christ on the basis of his sacrifice.

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

& also this

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

How can Christ be the image of the invisible God? What does it mean to exist in the very form of God?


Manny

This passage agrees that Christ had equality with God. What does this mean?








Manny

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
can you explain what these terms mean?

how do you confess the Christ?
why is belief enough?
do you really think that you are saved? if so, from what?

with forgiveness we can agree, the only difference being that we ask forgiveness of sins to God, through Christ on the basis of his sacrifice.

how do you confess the Christ?

Different denominations have different traditions on this matter. My understanding is that it is threefold.
1. we must make a public confession of Christ as our savior (before the body of believers)
2. we must make witness to the fact to people we meet (not just JW's do witnessing ya know)
3. we must make that confession, or rather obesience to christ himself, that he is lord over our lives.

why is belief enough?

I refer back to Romans 10: 13for "(S)WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

also in Romans 10: 9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

From Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
and of course John 3:16. In all of these salvation is predicated on belief, with no mention of works. i do believe works are important. They are the outward signs of our salvation and beleif inchrist (by their fruits ye shall know them). When we repent, and live a Godly life, the evidence can be seen in our lives.

do you really think that you are saved? if so, from what?

yes, I believe that I am saved. I believe that i will be spared from the eternal punishmnet. many Christians disagree on the nature of eternal punishment. My understanding is that those who refuse Christ, will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. what does fire do? It consumes and destroys. Hebrews 12: 28Therefore, since we receive a (BM)kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may (BN)offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe;

29for (BO)our God is a consuming fire.

I believe those not saved will be destroyed. A just and compassionate God, would not torture for eternity for what happened in a weak moment. Destruction is quick, eternal, and compassionate.

Originally posted by duecer
The word trinity does not appear in the bible....nor does the word Lutheraninsm, rapture, millenium, theocracy, Augustiinanism, and many other words in common usage today. To say a word that represents a concept and theology (way we explain God) does not exist therefor it is wrong, is not a valid argument.

Some people contend that trinity doctrines are of ...[text shortened]... way of mutual understanding.

respectful postings only please, and I will return the courtesy

((((Some people contend that trinity doctrines are of pagan descent and appear only after the council of Nicine; not true. Clement of Rome 100AD, Ignatius in 107AD, and Melito of Sardis 180AD discussed the trinity in their writings.))))

Just for arguments sake...have you looked up any of the historical references that have been given you about the origins of the trinity from Babylon and Egypt?

Originally posted by galveston75
((((Some people contend that trinity doctrines are of pagan descent and appear only after the council of Nicine; not true. Clement of Rome 100AD, Ignatius in 107AD, and Melito of Sardis 180AD discussed the trinity in their writings.))))

Just for arguments sake...have you looked up any of the historical references that have been given you about the origins of the trinity from Babylon and Egypt?

I have, and in balance find them less credible than ones supporting it(not that they wern't interesting though).


Edit: the following are selected translations of Ignatius, one of the early church fathers. He is purported to have died around 107AD

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been
blessed in greatness through the plenitude of God the Father;
which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever
unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a
true passion, by the will of the Father and of *Jesus Christ
our God*; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia],
worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus
and in blameless joy

My spirit is made an offscouring for the Cross, which is a
stumbling-block to them that are unbelievers, but to us
salvation and life eternal. Where is the wise? Where is the
disputer? Where is the boasting of them that are called
prudent? *For our God, Jesus the Christ,* was conceived in
the womb by Mary according to a dispensation, of the seed of
David but also of the Holy Ghost; and He was born and was
baptized that by His person He might cleanse water


From that time forward every sorcery and every spell was
dissolved, the ignorance of wickedness vanished away, the
ancient kingdom was pulled down, *when God appeared in the
likeness of man* unto newness of everlasting life; and that
which had been perfected in the counsels of God began to take
effect


Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found
mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of
Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and
enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things
that are, by faith and love *towards Jesus Christ our God*;
even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the
region of the Romans


I give glory *to Jesus Christ the God who bestowed such
wisdom upon you;* for I have perceived that ye are
established in faith immovable, being as it were nailed to
the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, in flesh and in spirit,
and firmly grounded in love in the blood of Christ, fully
persuaded as touching our Lord that He is truly of the race
of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine
will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John
that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly
nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and
Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we--that is, of His
most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto
all the ages through His resurrection, for His saints and
faithful people, whether among Jews or among Gentiles, in one
body of His Church


Let no man be deceived. Even the heavenly beings and the
glory of the angels and the rulers visible and invisible, if
they believe not *in the blood of Christ [who is God],*
judgment awaiteth them also

Originally posted by duecer
I have, and in balance find them less credible than ones supporting it(not that they wern't interesting though).


Edit: the following are selected translations of Ignatius, one of the early church fathers. He is purported to have died around 107AD

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been
blessed in greatness through the plen ...[text shortened]... they believe not *in the blood of Christ [who is God],*
judgment awaiteth them also

I aplogize but his is the founder of what church? I'm not familiar with him..

Originally posted by galveston75
I aplogize but his is the founder of what church? I'm not familiar with him..

He was the third bishop of Antioch and was reported to have been a student of St John, he was martyred in Rome around 107 AD

edit: it is said that Peter himself appointed him

One of the interesting things about the writings of the early church fathers: After the initial Apostles and scriptures, the writings are works of apologetics. 1 Clement is a wonderful commentary on some cool scriptual references. definitely worth reading.

Originally posted by galveston75
I aplogize but his is the founder of what church? I'm not familiar with him..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch


Interesting anyway.






Manny

Arius & his understanding of God it appears came a long during the 4th century. His ideas were in conflict with 3 different divisions of the church. Eastern Orthodox , Roman & Protestant. Not that that proves anything in and of it's self.






Manny

It is he who endured every kind of suffering in all those who foreshadowed him. In Abel he was slain, in Isaac bound, in Jacob exiled, in Joseph sold, in Moses exposed to die. He was sacrificed in the Passover lamb, persecuted in David, dishonoured in the prophets.

It is he who was made man of the Virgin, he who was hung on the tree; it is he who was buried in the earth, raised from the dead, and taken up to the heights of heaven. He is the mute lamb, the slain lamb, the lamb born of Mary, the fair ewe. He was seized from the flock, dragged off to be slaughtered, sacrificed in the evening, and buried at night. On the tree no bone of his was broken; in the earth his body knew no decay He is the One who rose from the dead, and who raised man from the depths of the tomb.

St. Melito of Sardis, Easter Homily
(died around 180 AD)

Originally posted by duecer
One of the interesting things about the writings of the early church fathers: After the initial Apostles and scriptures, the writings are works of apologetics. 1 Clement is a wonderful commentary on some cool scriptual references. definitely worth reading.

Well let's think on these writings for a minute and go back to the scriptures that Robbie and myself have quoted a few times. Acts 20:30, 2 Cor 11:13, 2Pet 2:1-3, Rom 16:17,18 are a few.
Remember both Jesus and the apostles warned that after they were gone that these things (false teachings) would start to filter into the congregations. In other words false ideas and teachings would be slowly introduced into the congragations. The protection that Jesus and the apostles gave would no longer be there. This warning they gave was real and for a real threat.
I did read some on the gentleman Ignatius and he may have been one who tried to stand against this from happening. But the problem was he was fighting against a pagan world of beliefs and then against Satan himself who would love to destroy all he can about the truth of the Bible.
And then it's an important point that if he was a true student of Paul it seems he would have been mentioned by him somehow. Just a thought.
But my question to you is have you ever thought much on what they were talking about as far as what could be coming into the congregations later that would be considered a false teaching? Could it be that Ignatius had fallen victum to one of them already? Maybe a simple error in his thoughts?
And if the trinity was the truth of God and Jesus why did it takle so long, about 400 years for it to finally, completely become accepted into the Catholic's beliefs?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well let's think on these writings for a minute and go back to the scriptures that Robbie and myself have quoted a few times. Acts 20:30, 2 Cor 11:13, 2Pet 2:1-3, Rom 16:17,18 are a few.
Remember both Jesus and the apostles warned that after they were gone that these things (false teachings) would start to filter into the congregations. In other words g, about 400 years for it to finally, completely become accepted into the Catholic's beliefs?

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And then it's an important point that if he was a true student of Paul it seems he would have been mentioned by him somehow. Just a thought.
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I think a Clement was mentioned. Can't find it now.