trinity revisited (for my own sake)

Originally posted by galveston75
Well let's think on these writings for a minute and go back to the scriptures that Robbie and myself have quoted a few times. Acts 20:30, 2 Cor 11:13, 2Pet 2:1-3, Rom 16:17,18 are a few.
Remember both Jesus and the apostles warned that after they were gone that these things (false teachings) would start to filter into the congregations. In other words g, about 400 years for it to finally, completely become accepted into the Catholic's beliefs?

I quote them for 2 basic reasons

1. To dispel the notion that the trinity was a Pagan doctrine introduced at the council of Nicene

2. The writers are part of the direct Apostolic tradition, and learned at the feet of people like John, Peter and Paul.


they are in no way definitive proof of the trinity, but rather supporting arguments and apologetics. The trinity doctrine didn't "finally" gain acceptance. It was one of the prominent theologies of the time. Unfortunately there were many competing theologies. Some stating that Christ was not born of a virgin, some saying he was. Some claiming that adherence to jewish tradition was crucial, some saying that Christ was the new circumcision. The council of Nicene was meant to unify and make catholic (means universal) the teachings. They worked and argued to over the texts and doctrines to be certain of the orthodoxy of the teachings

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===============================
And then it's an important point that if he was a true student of Paul it seems he would have been mentioned by him somehow. Just a thought.
==============================


I think a Clement was mentioned. Can't find it now.[/b]

clement was the fourth Pope or bishop of Rome, Peter being the first. It is said that he knew both Peter and Paul

Originally posted by duecer
interesting point, one worth meditating and pondering. Who is Christ?

The Messiah. So why was this to be a secret I wonder if this "messiah" is merely an average man? In fact, once revealed it was why he was accused of blasphemy and killed.

One thing about it is, those that belief in the actual text of John must come to terms with the notion that Jesus said that, "before Abraham I am". Of course, they all took up stones to stone this mere mortal man did they not?

In short, I think Christ is asking us the same question that he asked his disciples, "Whom do YOU say that I am?" It is because the Father will reveal who he is to those he so chooses. Who can argue with that?

Finding out why Arius believed what he believed might help. At least to understand both sides of the argument.
Arius posed the question, "Is Jesus unbegotten?" from wikipedia
Good question.






Manny

Of course Jesus said just that before Abraham was I am. Why did the Jews react in such a way? The JW's will admit that Jesus existed before Abraham but then for how long? If God forever. If just a divine creature than not for ever.









Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Of course Jesus said just that before Abraham was I am. Why did the Jews react in such a way? The JW's will admit that Jesus existed before Abraham but then for how long? If God forever. If just a divine creature than not for ever.









Manny

Jesus himself says he was the firstborn of all creation. Who created him if it wasn't God?
But again I ask if any of you have done any research on the Baylonian and Egytian trinites?

Originally posted by galveston75
Jesus himself says he was the firstborn of all creation. Who created him if it wasn't God?
But again I ask if any of you have done any research on the Baylonian and Egytian trinites?

I replied that I had, but I disagree that those practices infiltrated Christianity. I have shown in this thread that the idea of Christ as God is part of the Apostolic tradition.

edit: I think overall this discussion has been useful for both sides in seeking understanding. I appreciate the civilness of the discussion, thanks to all.

Originally posted by duecer
I replied that I had, but I disagree that those practices infiltrated Christianity. I have shown in this thread that the idea of Christ as God is part of the Apostolic tradition.

edit: I think overall this discussion has been useful for both sides in seeking understanding. I appreciate the civilness of the discussion, thanks to all.

I found this and it may be of interest to all:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm

I would really suggest that all read this.

Originally posted by galveston75
I found this and it may be of interest to all:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm

I would really suggest that all read this.

it was in fact interesting. Much of which I have read in other places. The one recurring question and answer is: Does this prove the trinity is a pagan doctrine? answer: no. though it does have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

An interesting quote: Most of ancient theology is lost under the sands of time.

Using pagan ideas in and of it's self our not bad if expounding on a truth.
The Apostle Paul did this.








Manny

Originally posted by duecer
it was in fact interesting. Much of which I have read in other places. The one recurring question and answer is: Does this prove the trinity is a pagan doctrine? answer: no. though it does have a lot of circumstantial evidence.

An interesting quote: Most of ancient theology is lost under the sands of time.

I noticed that statement too. The simple point is that Robbie and myself are trying to just get you guys to think about is "what if"... What if this is even remotely true about the origins? And we both know that you guys are really being honest in that you believe this is what the scriptures are saying. But with much study and honestly wanting to know the answers to this puzzle and knowing that the Bible says God wants to be worhiped with truth, and even with it meaning that we know most of the Christian religions don't accept our views because of the long history of most thinking the trinity is true, we know from our hearts that it is not what the Bible is teaching. Absolutley no doubts at all. So just think about it and do all the research you can...

Originally posted by galveston75
I found this and it may be of interest to all:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm

I would really suggest that all read this.

Agreed that was very interesting.









Manny

I can accept that there is some room for theological debate. On the essentials unity on the non-essentials liberty. However there has to be some common ground that is universal or at what point is some sect or group no longer Christian? Also I will never be a Jehovah Witness. I'm not buying their brand of religion is all. I disagree with the doctrines & history of the Jehovah's plain & simple. I however believe that Galveston loves God who am I to question that anyway. I'm not saying that the so called Christian church is perfect either. Look at the history. I'm willing to say that there is room for debate but somethings are essential or you no longer have Christianity.

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I can accept that there is some room for theological debate. On the essentials unity on the non-essentials liberty. However there has to be some common ground that is universal or at what point is some sect or group no longer Christian? Also I will never be a Jehovah Witness. I'm not buying their brand of religion is all. I disagree with the doctrines & hi is room for debate but somethings are essential or you no longer have Christianity.

Manny

Thanks. We are not saying you will ever have to be a Witness and that Witnesses are the only ones that God loves. It's not an easy belief to follow as it does cause many problems with many not approving of our beliefs. It even causes relitives to turn their backs on us. But as long as we know the Bible says what it does we feel like were doing something right. Mark 13:12, 13.
I can honestly say that many of my relitives especially on my Mom's side have been very hostile to us over the years because of our beliefs. Not too many other religions can say that their belief causes this problem.

This is the same for Christians too. My dad called me a fagot at first. My mom had serious reservations when I told her I'm a Christian. She was Catholic. People I knew made fun of me. Called me a Christer LOL. This is no way real persecution either at least in my mind. I was never faced with Death or threat of life. I think of 1 Cor 13 and I'm guilty of not practicing this.


1 Corinthians 13
The Excellence of Love
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,

5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.




Manny