True Spiritual stories...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The comment made about... "Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't."...

I submit that it is. It is like saying "I don't believe I have cancer growing in me. I don't reject it, it just isn't true."

But your scenario requires, first, that the individual actually knows he has cancer, and then chooses to behave as though he doesn't. The cancer is placed before him as a relative certainty, which he then proceeds to deny.

The trouble is that I actually do not know that God exists. In order for me to choose to reject him, I must first believe he's actually there for me to reject. I don't believe that; as far as I know God simply does not exist.

If you actually don't have cancer, or don't know you have cancer, and then you go about your day as though you don't have cancer, does that mean you're rejecting your cancer, which may not even exist? That seems a pretty silly semantic position to me.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I submit that it is. It is like saying "I don't believe I have cancer growing in me. I don't reject it, it just isn't true."

Now, imagine that someone expected you to believe you had cancer without any medical examinations, scan results, etc. Or, the results they showed you were unconvincing. Or, you got a 2nd/3rd/etc. opinion and those doctors didn't think you had cancer.

Hey checkbaiter, before I started posting here a week or so ago, you didn't know that I existed. Does that mean you rejected me? Should I feel offended or hurt by your rejection of me?

Originally posted by darthmix
But your scenario requires, first, that the individual actually knows he has cancer, and then chooses to behave as though he doesn't. The cancer is placed before him as a relative certainty, which he then proceeds to deny.

The trouble is that I actually do not know that God exists. In order for me to choose to reject him, I must first believe he's ...[text shortened]... your cancer, which may not even exist? That seems a pretty silly semantic position to me.

Alright then consider this....believe it or not....God created the heavens and the earth, He gave us His book, it is so simple a child can receive it, He gave us His Son, had Him crucified to pay for your sins and mine, He raised Him from the dead to prove He accepted the sacrafice, He promises everlasting life in His Kingdom where there will be no evil, no more tears, etc. His Son will rule righteously, no more corruption, no sickness and an abundance of food.
If we come to Him with a humble heart, He will reveal Himself to you. He will "prove" Himself to you. That is what He has done for me. I believe He will do this for anyone....He has given all, He has made His move, and it is our turn to take the next step and come to Him....
I don't have the answers about why He did this or that. He is God. I don't tell Him what to do, I do not have His limitless understanding. We are finite, He is infinite. Unless He reveals all His doings we simply do not know...

Isa 40:13-31
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as His counselor has taught Him?
14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, and showed Him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket, and are counted as the small dust on the scales; look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before Him are as nothing, and they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
19 The workman molds an image, the goldsmith overspreads it with gold, and the silversmith casts silver chains.
20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution chooses a tree that will not rot; he seeks for himself a skillful workman to prepare a carved image that will not totter.
21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
23 He brings the princes to nothing; he makes the judges of the earth useless.
24 Scarcely shall they be planted, Scarcely shall they be sown, Scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth, when He will also blow on them, and they will wither, and the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.
25 "To whom then will you liken Me, or to whom shall I be equal?" says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high, and see who has created these things, who brings out their host by number; he calls them all by name, by the greatness of His might and the strength of His power; not one is missing.
27 Why do you say, O Jacob, and speak, O Israel: "My way is hidden from the LORD, and my just claim is passed over by my God"?
28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable.
29 He gives power to the weak, and to those who have no might He increases strength.
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall,
31 But those who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.
(NKJ)

We have nothing to lose and all to gain....

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Wow! I only have 12!😕

I mis-typed. Only 14!

Originally posted by vistesd
I mis-typed. Only 14!

LOL....Let's make them good ones...!!

Originally posted by darthmix
See, he could get whatever he wants out of it, just as he could get whatever he wants out of this one. That's the problem you run into with the prospect of an almighty God: if he desires a certain thing, he can simply create that thing, precisely to suit his desire. He doesn't need to create a multi-faceted, morally complex, spiritually treacherous universe ...[text shortened]... own free will. He doesn't have to hold a gun to our heads by threatening us with suffering.

He could simply let people decide to love him, or not, based purely on their own free will. He doesn't have to hold a gun to our heads by threatening us with suffering. DARTH

Warnings of hell are precisely that - warnings- If God is the fulfillment of your hearts desire , the essence of everything good and worthy in life then if one chooses to reject this what is left? You think God creates hell to bludgeon us into loving him?? I'm sure God wishes that hell did not exist and no-one went there. But he created us real beings with real choices. We choose hell everyday on earth. To reject God is to reject happiness - unconsciously or otherwise- happiness is not a parcel that God can hand out , it's more like a stream of water that you either stand in or don't. Hell is what happens when one removes himself from the stream of happiness for eternity.

Originally posted by darthmix
But your scenario requires, first, that the individual actually knows he has cancer, and then chooses to behave as though he doesn't. The cancer is placed before him as a relative certainty, which he then proceeds to deny.

The trouble is that I actually do not know that God exists. In order for me to choose to reject him, I must first believe he's ...[text shortened]... your cancer, which may not even exist? That seems a pretty silly semantic position to me.

The trouble is that I actually do not know that God exists. In order for me to choose to reject him, I must first believe he's actually there for me to reject. I don't believe that; as far as I know God simply does not exist. DARTH


...but it's not as if you are completely ignorant of what God is about and what he has done. The very fact that Christ has entered the world and witnessed to it is a starting point. No man will be able to say " I had no idea you were there lord , why did you not come down and tell us who you were!?"

You may not believe in God but at this point in time you may be rejecting the possibility that what makes little sense to you now may mean much more to you in the future. You tell me.

Originally posted by darthmix
Yeah. If I have infallible knowledge of and power over future events, and I know that if I have a son he'll become a mass murderer but I have him anyway and allow him to hurt innocent people, then yes, I'd say I'm very much to blame.

But you could not know the future of your son unless you actually had your son because your son's future would not exist. Unless he is born he won't become a mass murderer , and until he is (because your son has free will) you will never know.

What;s hard to grasp is that God really doesn't know what you are going to do until you do it. --BUT---once you have done it he knows it for all time. God does not look into the future along our timeline.

Originally posted by darthmix
But this story does ask us to believe that divine forces intervened upon the actions of individual people, causing them to be late to the church and thus saving their lives. If free will is one of the rules set in place, isn't it much more serious for god to have changed that rule by causing the people to make choices they would not have otherwise made? Wou ...[text shortened]... n't it be a much less serious intervention to simply prevent the explosion in the first place?

If free will is one of the rules set in place, isn't it much more serious for god to have changed that rule by causing the people to make choices they would not have otherwise made? DARTH

God was able to influence their lives because they had freely given over some control of their lives to God. If they had not he might not have been able to do what he did. So maybe he did alter their choices but if he did it would have been because they had freely agreed to allow him to do this in some prior conversion.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The trouble is that I actually do not know that God exists. In order for me to choose to reject him, I must first believe he's actually there for me to reject. I don't believe that; as far as I know God simply does not exist. DARTH


...but it's not as if you are completely ignorant of what God is about and what he has done. The very fact that Chri ...[text shortened]... at what makes little sense to you now may mean much more to you in the future. You tell me.

When you get to the underworld you won't be able to tell Zeus, "I had no idea you were there! Why didn't you come down and tell us who you were?" I mean, Zeus has had plenty of interaction with us mortals. It's up to you now to accept him or reject him.

To reject God is to reject happiness - unconsciously or otherwise- happiness is not a parcel that God can hand out

On the contrary. If he wants to, God can give me a button that when pressed directly stimulates the pleasure centers of my brain. He wants me to be happy, doesn't he? Where's my button?

Also, if hell is simply the inevitable result of choosing to "reject" God, do I stay in hell after I die and realize that God exists and it really would be much better to accept him. Can't I repent after death?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Alright then consider this....believe it or not....God created the heavens and the earth, He gave us His book, it is so simple a child can receive it, He gave us His Son, had Him crucified to pay for your sins and mine, He raised Him from the dead to prove He accepted the sacrafice, He promises everlasting life in His Kingdom where there will be no evil, ...[text shortened]... ry, they shall walk and not faint.
(NKJ)

We have nothing to lose and all to gain....

...He gave us His book, it is so simple a child can receive it...

A child can also "receive" ghost stories. Do you believe those? After all, people have actual photographic evidence for ghosts.

Oh I believe them. I just have a different explanation of them than ghost hunters.

Originally posted by GregM

Also, if hell is simply the inevitable result of choosing to "reject" God, do I stay in hell after I die and realize that God exists and it really would be much better to accept him. Can't I repent after death?

Rejecting God and believing he exists are two different things. The Bible says even the devils believe, and tremble. You have to go to the meaning of the word translated "believe" from the Greek. It means more than mentally assent to the fact that he exists. It means to put your faith in, lean on, acknowledge that he is true and right etc.

That doesn't answer any of the (good) questions being discussed here. It's just a bit of clarification.

Originally posted by GregM
When you get to the underworld you won't be able to tell Zeus, "I had no idea you were there! Why didn't you come down and tell us who you were?" I mean, Zeus has had plenty of interaction with us mortals. It's up to you now to accept him or reject him.

[b]To reject God is to reject happiness - unconsciously or otherwise- happiness is not a parcel that God ...[text shortened]... d exists and it really would be much better to accept him. Can't I repent after death?

On the contrary. If he wants to, God can give me a button that when pressed directly stimulates the pleasure centers of my brain. He wants me to be happy, doesn't he? Where's my button? GREG

It's been tried. It's called drugs. By all accounts the happiness produced is temporary and dissatisfying. The kind of happiness god intends for us is far deeper and lasting and based on his very nature being shared with us.