True Spiritual stories...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
If I may ask, in such a world, what would be it's purpose? I mean why would God make such a world? For what? What would He get out of it? I'm assuming, a world of unbelievers, who go about their business doing whatsoever they please.

See, he could get whatever he wants out of it, just as he could get whatever he wants out of this one. That's the problem you run into with the prospect of an almighty God: if he desires a certain thing, he can simply create that thing, precisely to suit his desire. He doesn't need to create a multi-faceted, morally complex, spiritually treacherous universe in which the vast majority of humanity will suffer for all time just to satisfy some desire of his down the line... unless that universe, full of suffering, is itself the exact thing he desires.

Think about it: if God did create a universe free of human suffering and spiritual afterworld punishment, he might indeed get a bunch of unbelievers who go about doing as they please. But that's not too different from what he has in this one: most people do not accept him in the way Christians claim he wants them to. The only difference is that in this one millions of people live lives of want and misery on earth, and then go on to an afterlife filled with much greater misery in hell. All so God can have... what? A small minority of saved people who worship him of their own free will? If that's all he wants, then he could get that without sending anyone to hell, or inflicting suffering on them by placing them in this world. He could simply let people decide to love him, or not, based purely on their own free will. He doesn't have to hold a gun to our heads by threatening us with suffering.

Originally posted by darthmix
See, he could get whatever he wants out of it, just as he could get whatever he wants out of this one. That's the problem you run into with the prospect of an almighty God: if he desires a certain thing, he can simply create that thing, precisely to suit his desire. He doesn't need to create a multi-faceted, morally complex, spiritually treacherous universe ...[text shortened]... own free will. He doesn't have to hold a gun to our heads by threatening us with suffering.

Well, did you ever consider that your perception of God and the bible could be wrong?
I believe the reason He created Lucifer, Adam and Eve, knowing they would all sin, was for good reason. I think He wanted people to see both sides, good and evil. Then decide for themselves whether to accept or reject His Saviour. After all, there will be quite a different world after it is all said and done and His will accomplished. He will have His perfect world with people who genuinely love Him. Not to mention, He helps those who are His now. Remember, Satan is called the god of this world. All the evil around us is his doing. That alone should drive people to Jesus Christ.
As far as "hell", I don't believe the bible teaches "eternal" suffering and torment. I think that those who reject Him will perish and cease to exist.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Well, did you ever consider that your perception of God and the bible could be wrong?
I believe the reason He created Lucifer, Adam and Eve, knowing they would all sin, was for good reason. I think He wanted people to see both sides, good and evil. Then decide for themselves whether to accept or reject His Saviour. After all, there will be quite a diffe ...[text shortened]... l" suffering and torment. I think that those who reject Him will perish and cease to exist.

Why didn't he just create people who genuinely love him in the first place? Why all the screwing around with free will? Real love/worship is the same whether he teaches it to us through generation after generation of suffering or he just creates us that way. Or are you claiming God is not capable of creating us in any way he chooses?

Duplicate post. Still learning how things work here. See below.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Well, did you ever consider that your perception of God and the bible could be wrong?
Constantly. Do you ever consider that yours could also be wrong?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I believe the reason He created Lucifer, Adam and Eve, knowing they would all sin, was for good reason. I think He wanted people to see both sides, good and evil. Then decide for themselves whether to accept or reject His Saviour.
Again, if that's what he wants - for people choose to accept him or reject him, to sin, or not, purely on the merits of that choice - then he has no reason to attach any further consequences to it. To do so is actually counter to that purpose. See that? If God wants me to choose to love him, purely by my own volition - if that kind of uncoerced love is what God desires from me - then the reward/punishment incentive he attaches to it necessarily corrupts the freedom of that choice. If I'm to choose to be good purely for the sake of good, or if I'm to avoid evil because evil itself is bad, then the wages of sin CANNOT be death, and faith in God CANNOT be rewarded with eternal life. See why?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Remember, Satan is called the god of this world. All the evil around us is his doing. That alone should drive people to Jesus Christ.
Yeah, the trouble is that the motivation of Satan makes even less sense than the motivation of god. Before the fall he has direct, experiential understanding of God, his presence and his nature. He knew that God was almighty, omnipotent, and infallible. He must, then, have known that the prospect of rebellion was absurd - not only that it could never succeed, but that it was also totally wrong and without merit, by definition. If he was ignorant of these facts, then his act was an innocent mistake; if he was not, then his behavior makes no logical sense.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
As far as "hell", I don't believe the bible teaches "eternal" suffering and torment. I think that those who reject Him will perish and cease to exist.
Congratulations on having the good sense to reject the most obviously absurd point of traditional Christian doctrine.

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]Well, did you ever consider that your perception of God and the bible could be wrong?
Constantly. Do you ever consider that yours could also be wrong?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I believe the reason He created Lucifer, Adam and Eve, knowing they would all sin, was for good reason. I think good sense to reject the most obviously absurd point of traditional Christian doctrine.

Your comments are reasonable and logical. They are very good questions that I have pondered myself. And yes, I always consider that I could be wrong in my assumptions. But not the existence of God, nor of Jesus Christ. Evolution is illogical to me, and I have come to a place where I have "proved" God to myself. That is something each individual needs to come to eventually...
As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulership of Satan. This is his world, at least the authority of this world. So we live our lives under his rulership. This may not seem fair, but when I am tossed a lifesaver, I can either accept it or drown.
If I had the ability to create a wife of my choice, I could make her beautiful and she would love me. But this love would not be her choice. It would be mine. She would never be tempted by another man....God did not want a wife nor children like this....I, like I assume God does, want a wife who could look at other men, but decides she wants me because of who I am. Do you see that?
I have learned God's character. He is all love and in Him is no evil at all. He is also kind, very patient, holy, good and hates evil and sin.
Don't think for one minute that God does not hate all the evil going on in the world. You might say why does He not stop it? He can't. Plain and simple. He can limit the pain and suffering, but He gave Adam all authority on earth, Adam, unfortunately transferred it all to Satan. God cannot legally, take it back and remain holy. He had a plan...that plans name is Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulership of Satan. This is his world, at least the authority of this world. So we live our lives under his rulership. This may not seem fair, but when I am tossed a lifesaver, I can either accept it or drown.

Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't.

I don't reject God, or Jesus. Jesus as described in most literature we have appears to have been a good man, certainly relative to the regime under which he lived. Many of the things he said about how we should treat one another were enlightened. Other people have said similar things just as enlightened throughout history, both before and after Jesus' time, but that doesn't detract from their wisdom.

It's just that I don't think he was any less mortal than I am, or that his God is real.

That's all: God just doesn't exist. It's not God's fault that he doesn't exist, and I don't hold it against him; God was never given a choice of whether he'd exist or not. If he existed, I hope he'd be a pretty good God - you know, because he'd define what the word "good" means - and I hope further that, if he was good, I'd be smart enought to realize that and love him for it. But it just isn't the case. And in claiming that, I'm not accepting the devil, or acting out any hostility against God. I'm certainly not agreeing to go to hell for all eternity, or to perish and reject salvation. I'm just describing the universe as best I understand it: the universe that is ruled by a supreme intelligence, and the one in which we live, are incompatible to me. I cannot honestly say otherwise. If I did say otherwise, I'd be lying, to you and to myself.

To make a creation that's ignorant of your existence, and to punish him or reward him based on whether he figures it out, makes absolutely no sense. If God's existence can be proven, then it requires no faith to believe in him, but if God's existence cannot be proven than a person can blamelessly decide he does not exist, or at least fail to come to the conclusion that he does.

So that's my problem with faith-based salvation. If I'm drowning and you're going to throw me a lifeline, would you make that lifeline invisible, or obscure it in the darkness or the ocean? Would you say "maybe I'm here on the dock... this might save you... you'll find out later"? Would your throw out hundreds of different-colored ropes, and only save the people who pick the right one? Of course not. If you really wanted to save me, you'd do everything in your power to make sure I knew the lifeline was there.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
If I had the ability to create a wife of my choice, I could make her beautiful and she would love me. But this love would not be her choice. It would be mine. She would never be tempted by another man....God did not want a wife nor children like this....I, like I assume God does, want a wife who could look at other men, but decides she wants me because of who I am. Do you see that?

And if you created a wife who had free will, and she, of her own free will, chose another man over you... Would you kill her? Would you allow her to pass into nothingness? Or would you wish her well, and allow her to find happiness in the arms of another? Or on her own?

She might choose not to love you. But if you really loved her, then you wouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulersh ...[text shortened]... ouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.

Well said and I admire your honesty.....I can only relate my experience. To sum it up quickly, I came to the conclusion that there must be more to life than 70 or so years and a hole in the ground. If this is your conclusion, then enjoy life and live each moment to it's fullest. And I commend you for doing so.
I just refused to accept that it is all there is. I wondered how I came to be. How the stars were hung in space. How beautiful a flower can be, etc. And that it would all end for me someday. Anyway, I started a quest. I decided to learn this bible thing for myself. I read it myself, I questioned everything. I searched long and hard. I was looking for God. If He was real. ...then an incredible thing happened, He found me....I wish you well....I'll leave you with this thought....Peace.


Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
(NKJ)

Okay then. Thanks for an interesting discussion.

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulersh ouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.

[/b]Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't.

Precisely. Post rec’d.

Would your throw out hundreds of different-colored ropes, and only save the people who pick the right one?

Double rec’d! (Well, if I could.)

It's not God's fault that he doesn't exist, and I don't hold it against him...

Brilliant! So much of what goes on here entails theists accusing non-theists (including those of us of the non-dualist stripe) of “blaming god.”

And if you created a wife who had free will, and she, of her own free will, chose another man over you... Would you kill her? Would you allow her to pass into nothingness? Or would you wish her well, and allow her to find happiness in the arms of another? Or on her own?

She might choose not to love you. But if you really loved her, then you wouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.

Couldn’t have put it better—and I have tried... BTW, there are many theists on your side here—e.g., the Sufis.

________________________________

Just an aside: CB’s a good guy, and will always take your views under advisement. He and I have generally disagreed, but with mutual respect and affection

Originally posted by vistesd
Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't.

Precisely. Post rec’d.

Would your throw out hundreds of different-colored ropes, and only save the people who pick the right one?

Double rec’d! (Well, if I could.)

It's not Go ...[text shortened]... der advisement. He and I have generally disagreed, but with mutual respect and affection

You still have the 70 yrs and a hole in the ground.....😉

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You still have the 70 yrs and a hole in the ground.....😉

In that case, I only have 24 years to go! 😉

Originally posted by vistesd
In that case, I only have 24 years to go! 😉

Wow! I only have 12!😕

Originally posted by darthmix
Correct. If God is truly benevolent, and does not wish to bring forth suffering upon his creation, then he'd presumably limit or do away with the suffering in the world, since that's within his power.

The objection - "but then we wouldn't need a savior!" is a poor one, since an evil world with a savior turns out to be a much worse option. Since God knows ...[text shortened]... of their spiritual existence burning in hell. It's the worst option, not the best one.

Not the best? If numbers and numbers alone set the stage I'd agree,
but I don't. It is being done in righteousness and mercy where
everyone who wills may come, they cannot earn it. The fact that most
don't want it, don't care, don't want to be bothered isn't God's fault,
but man's.
Kelly

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Right. You worship a God who permitted all of the suffering on earth, past, present and future, so his own selfish needs could be satisfied. Pitiful.

Again, God setup the universe we broke it and are left with what
was done to the broken one. There is nothing stopping us from
actually going out and helping one another, caring for one another,
doing no harm, but 'we' attack, smear, and do all manner of evil
to each other and we do it with intent. Things like a bridge breaking
down or tornado hitting are amoral, but when we strike each other
for what the other has, or because of superficial things like skin
color it is us not God who is at fault with the human suffering past,
present, and future.
Kelly