I would very much like to see a theist's response to this post made by darthmix on the third page. I quote it here for your convenience.
Originally posted by checkbaiter
As far as the rest of your post...I don't quite follow. I don't believe He attaches consequences. We accept the consequences when we reject Him. Those conditions were present before we were born. The consequences are that when we reject His salvation, we knowingly or unknowingly accept to remain under the rulership of Satan. This is his world, at least the authority of this world. So we live our lives under his rulership. This may not seem fair, but when I am tossed a lifesaver, I can either accept it or drown.
Yeah, see, that's the core of my problem with faith-based salvation: it assumes that failing to believe in God is the same as rejecting him. It isn't.
I don't reject God, or Jesus. Jesus as described in most literature we have appears to have been a good man, certainly relative to the regime under which he lived. Many of the things he said about how we should treat one another were enlightened. Other people have said similar things just as enlightened throughout history, both before and after Jesus' time, but that doesn't detract from their wisdom.
It's just that I don't think he was any less mortal than I am, or that his God is real.
That's all: God just doesn't exist. It's not God's fault that he doesn't exist, and I don't hold it against him; God was never given a choice of whether he'd exist or not. If he existed, I hope he'd be a pretty good God - you know, because he'd define what the word "good" means - and I hope further that, if he was good, I'd be smart enought to realize that and love him for it. But it just isn't the case. And in claiming that, I'm not accepting the devil, or acting out any hostility against God. I'm certainly not agreeing to go to hell for all eternity, or to perish and reject salvation. I'm just describing the universe as best I understand it: the universe that is ruled by a supreme intelligence, and the one in which we live, are incompatible to me. I cannot honestly say otherwise. If I did say otherwise, I'd be lying, to you and to myself.
To make a creation that's ignorant of your existence, and to punish him or reward him based on whether he figures it out, makes absolutely no sense. If God's existence can be proven, then it requires no faith to believe in him, but if God's existence cannot be proven than a person can blamelessly decide he does not exist, or at least fail to come to the conclusion that he does.
So that's my problem with faith-based salvation. If I'm drowning and you're going to throw me a lifeline, would you make that lifeline invisible, or obscure it in the darkness or the ocean? Would you say "maybe I'm here on the dock... this might save you... you'll find out later"? Would your throw out hundreds of different-colored ropes, and only save the people who pick the right one? Of course not. If you really wanted to save me, you'd do everything in your power to make sure I knew the lifeline was there.
Originally posted by checkbaiter
If I had the ability to create a wife of my choice, I could make her beautiful and she would love me. But this love would not be her choice. It would be mine. She would never be tempted by another man....God did not want a wife nor children like this....I, like I assume God does, want a wife who could look at other men, but decides she wants me because of who I am. Do you see that?
And if you created a wife who had free will, and she, of her own free will, chose another man over you... Would you kill her? Would you allow her to pass into nothingness? Or would you wish her well, and allow her to find happiness in the arms of another? Or on her own?
She might choose not to love you. But if you really loved her, then you wouldn't make loving you the sole purpose of her existence.
08 Aug '07 01:59
True Spiritual stories...
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