Value

Originally posted by Halitose
Sigh. You seem to have some misconceptions on the Christian concepts of hell, so I'll c&p from a previous post:

My 2 cents on hell.

There is no doctrine I would rather remove from my Christianity than the doctrine of hell. I know I've alluded many times to free will and I do so here again.

If the acceptance and happiness of a creature (heaven) ...[text shortened]... locked from the inside, where those lost souls enjoy the freedom without God they have demanded.

Interesting post.

I contend that to enter heaven, is to become more human than you ever succeeded on earth...

My belief is that our true nature is divine immortality. To ascend into Heaven is to loose our humanity. It’s our human nature that separates us from God.

Peace.

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
Just because we have empathy and feel we have value does not mean its true.

You may be loosing sight of the bigger picture here. Ultimately, without feelings or consciousness nothing matters. It is after all God’s great love for us (at least in my view) that makes this life worthwhile.

Even if one is an atheist legal rights are based off of morals, and morals are based off of feelings. To not feel is to not exist.

Peace.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Psalm 16:9-10 “Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest is hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”

Not everyone, Christian or not, believes the same about hell.

The verse you gave doesn't contradict anything I said. The author of the psalm believes he will go to heaven. That doesn't mean that all of the others will be spared hell. The NT specifically talks of god sending people to hell: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
The verse you gave doesn't contradict anything I said. The author of the psalm believes he will go to heaven. That doesn't mean that all of the others will be spared hell. The NT specifically talks of god sending people to hell: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

I believe you missed my point. I wasn’t suggesting that nobody goes to hell, just that those who are sent there are eventually released after their debt has been paid. There are of coarse evil people in this world, and not everybody makes it into Heaven when they die.

Peace.

Originally posted by Halitose

You have answered my 'misconceptions' mainly with speculation.

Originally posted by Halitose
A man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness. I think that an evil man's perdition is not a sentence imposed on him, but the mere fact of being what he is.

The reason man needs forgiveness, according to scripture, is that god has set an impossibly high standard for him. God is the one with the hangup; he requires the shedding of blood to 'cleanse' sin, even minor, non-violent sin.

Originally posted by Halitose
I think the characteristic of a lost soul is the rejection of everything that is not him/herself. Such a person has turned everything around them into an appendage of the self. A true egoist.

Here's the usual slap in the face to those of other faiths, who have diligently sought truth all their life, as well as those who lived unselfishly, yet did not believe in christ.

Originally posted by Halitose
When it comes to "eternal torture", I don't think we should to easily be swept along by frightful images suggested in medieval art and some parts of scripture for that matter.

In other words, ignore or marginalize the parts that make you uncomfortable.

Originally posted by Halitose
I contend that to enter heaven, is to become more human than you ever succeeded on earth; to enter hell, is to be banished from humanity.

"The road is narrow, and few find it." It is not a banishment from humanity; quite the opposite. Most of them are going to end up in hell.

Originally posted by Halitose
What is cast (or casts itself)into hell, is not a man: it is the "remains".

The bible says, "fear Him who has the power to cast body and soul into hell." (emphasis mine) In other words, god's doing the casting.

Originally posted by Halitose
I notice Christ, while stressing the terror of hell, usually emphasizes the idea not of duration, but of finality.

Nevertheless, the 'eternal' part is there, and can't be so easily ignored.

Originally posted by Halitose
I willingly believe that the doors of hell are locked from the inside, where those lost souls enjoy the freedom without God they have demanded.

Here's the usual attempt to shift blame entirely on the human. According to the bible, it's not necessary to demand freedom from god to go to hell; simply doing nothing to atone for sin is good enough. A demand implies an active rejection of christ. A person of another faith has not gone through life demanding freedom from god; in fact, in most cases, they've been doing what they can to obey god. Your statement will not even credit them for good intentions.

You'd think that god, if he were merciful, would check up on the occupants of hell (say, every hundred years) to ask whether some of them wanted to change their mind.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
You have answered my 'misconceptions' mainly with speculation.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]A man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness. I think that an evil man's perdition is not a sentence imposed on him, but the mere fact of being what he is.

The reason man needs forgiveness, according to scripture, is that ...[text shortened]... ants of hell (say, every hundred years) to ask whether some of them wanted to change their mind.[/b]

Wow. Like anybody can give you the facts on hell. Btw, I'm not even going to try and answer as you've already assumed that my position is that people of other religions are automatically doomed to hell.

Originally posted by Halitose
Sigh. You seem to have some misconceptions on the Christian concepts of hell, so I'll c&p from a previous post:

My 2 cents on hell.

There is no doctrine I would rather remove from my Christianity than the doctrine of hell. I know I've alluded many times to free will and I do so here again.

If the acceptance and happiness of a creature (heaven) ...[text shortened]... locked from the inside, where those lost souls enjoy the freedom without God they have demanded.

If the acceptance and happiness of a creature (heaven) lay in self-surrender, then no one can make that surrender except himself.

What is meant here by "self-surrender"? Are you referring to the total surrender of rational thought and warranted belief-building processes? Who would want to make such concessions, and what kind of mad hatter God would make absolution of moral responsibility wholly contingent upon the adoption of arbitrary beliefs? Does He also get angry if you forget to celebrate His very merry unbirthday?

A man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness. I think that an evil man's perdition is not a sentence imposed on him, but the mere fact of being what he is. I think the characteristic of a lost soul is the rejection of everything that is not him/herself. Such a person has turned everything around them into an appendage of the self. A true egoist. Their selfishness has quenched them to a rudimentary contact with the world outside themselves. Death removes this last contact. There this soul has his/her wish; to lie wholly immersed in itself and to make the best of what it finds there. What it finds there is Hell.

Rubbish. The concept of Hell clearly is a problem for your faith because you have resorted to blanketly depicting any resident of Hell as evil incarnate and the epitome of self-centeredness. This view may make the concept of Hell more appealing to your palate, but you are simply evading the real problem with the Christian conception of Hell. As I understand it, under your worldview, simply failing to accept Christ is sufficient grounds for sentencing one to Hell. This failure to accept Christ may lie merely in the perception of insufficient evidence to warrant such belief, and in no way does this abstinence from seemingly arbitrary beliefs imply anything about the manner in which the person carried out his or her life. That is the problem with the notion that faith is a necessary condition for salvation. According to your worldview, I cannot avoid eternal damnation unless I commit myself wholly to beliefs that I perceive to be arbitrary; I must act like the nonsensical makes perfect sense; I must believe in beliefs that I simultaneously believe merit no belief. Therefore, under the circumstances, barring the uncovering of new and compelling evidence, I don't see how my faith could ever be sincere. Now, if your God wants to punish me for all eternity for that alone, then He can go screw Himself -- He is omnipotent, after all, so surely He can manage that logically possible feat.

We know much more about heaven than hell...

Really? Because I recall asking dj2 what Heaven will be like, and he said (paraphrasing) that it will be happiness beyond all comprehension. I guess in order to appease the ego, one need not worry about the particulars.

I willingly believe that the doors of hell are locked from the inside, where those lost souls enjoy the freedom without God they have demanded.

Excellent. In that case, please point me in direction of Hell because it sounds absolutely divine. Is it BYOB?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
implying that you are an atheist evolutionist.

If you are not an atheist, then what was the purpose of that post? Simply to abuse me?

Yeah, I'm afraid so. You're just so....abusable, LH.

As an agnostic, I believe the question of a higher power is both unknowable and/or irrelevant. I am, as you MUST know by now, inclined toward strong atheism on the topic of the christian notion of god. Especially that poorly transmuted Sun worship that you call Jesus and the New Testament.

Originally posted by David C
I believe the question of a higher power is both unknowable and/or irrelevant...

God is unknowable until we meet him.

Originally posted by Halitose
Wow. Like anybody can give you the facts on hell. Btw, I'm not even going to try and answer as you've already assumed that my position is that people of other religions are automatically doomed to hell.

Of course I wasn't expecting facts on hell, but I was hoping to see more than just speculation.

You're a christian, so I assumed that you follow the bible, which is where most christians get the tenants of their faith. The bible claims that those who don't go through jesus (i.e., people of other faiths) can't enter heaven, so it's entirely reasonable for me to assume that you believe that as well. You could have easily cleared this up in your reply.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I believe you missed my point. I wasn’t suggesting that nobody goes to hell, just that those who are sent there are eventually released after their debt has been paid. There are of coarse evil people in this world, and not everybody makes it into Heaven when they die.

Peace.

The Psalms were written by David (if memory serves), who was a 'man after god's own heart', according to scripture. Do you believe that he was temporarily sent to hell? That seems to be a real stretch.

The verse doesn't seem to be saying that people get out of hell after serving some time there. From my reading, it seems that the author is saying that following the 'path of light' avoids hell altogether.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
God is unknowable until we meet him.

What makes you think you'll even get past his secretary?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
The Psalms were written by David (if memory serves), who was a 'man after god's own heart', according to scripture. Do you believe that he was temporarily sent to hell? That seems to be a real stretch.

The verse doesn't seem to be saying that people get out of hell after serving some time there. From my reading, it seems that the author is saying that following the 'path of light' avoids hell altogether.

The Psalms were written by David (if memory serves), who was a 'man after god's own heart', according to scripture.

Lets face it, there are no unbelievers in hell. If people don’t believe in God here on Earth, they do in hell. Perhaps David learned the hard way.

Do you believe that he was temporarily sent to hell?

Possibly, or David may just simply be telling us that hell is not eternal.

The verse doesn't seem to be saying that people get out of hell after serving some time there.

Really? What does this mean to you? “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…”

From my reading, it seems that the author is saying that following the 'path of light' avoids hell altogether.

Yes, I believe that hell is avoidable. I could quote numerous passages that talk about God’s great love for us and everlasting mercy.

Originally posted by David C
What makes you think you'll even get past his secretary?

What makes you think God needs a secretary?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Of course I wasn't expecting facts on hell, but I was hoping to see more than just speculation.

You're a christian, so I assumed that you follow the bible, which is where most christians get the tenants of their faith. The bible claims that those who don't go through jesus (i.e., people of other faiths) can't enter heaven, so it's entir ...[text shortened]... me to assume that you believe that as well. You could have easily cleared this up in your reply.

The bible claims that those who don't go through jesus (i.e., people of other faiths) can't enter heaven...

This is based on interpretation.