@Arkturos said
Deserves an excerpt and repetition ^^^
@moonbus said
we have very good reasons to think that anyone who says he has a hot-line to the Almighty is either insane or wishes to control us.
if i speak to god, that's a good thing
if god speaks to me, intervention is required
(anti-murder pill time)
@rookie54 saidHear, hear. If you think you are getting transcendental messages to kill people, get help. And that means psychiatric help, not reinforcements with ammo.@moonbus said
we have very good reasons to think that anyone who says he has a hot-line to the Almighty is either insane or wishes to control us.
if i speak to god, that's a good thing
if god speaks to me, intervention is required
(anti-murder pill time)
I was living in Santa Cruz at the time this serial killer was on a rampage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Mullin
The intellectual Achilles Heel of command ethics is not so much that we are not sure what is commanded--do this, don't do that, honor your parents, don't kill people, etc.--but rather that some people tend to over-reach trying to enforce compliance. We have no problem justifying interventionist action to disarm someone waving a pistol about in a crowded place, to prevent him from killing people (including himself). But are we supposed to make someone honor his father and mother ?? By some sort of interventionist action, by shaming him, if doesn't? And what if the father is a his-own-child-molesting bustard? Do we still have to tell his daughter to honor him? (I know a woman whose father molested her sister--I've seen the damage done, even to the one who was not directly molested herself: it lasts a lifetime.)
@moonbus saidIndeed, this is the very heart of the matter.
@Suzianne
The problem with vertical morality is that if you think God told you take your son out in to the desert and slit his throat, you have to put what you know to be wrong in abeyance and just do it, because you fear God's wrath. We know it is wrong to murder your son (or anybody else, for that matter), whatever God says.
"Oh, but God would never tell you to ...[text shortened]... ink that anyone who says he has a hot-line to the Almighty is either insane or wishes to control us.
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@Suzianne saidEven if the story of Abraham and Isaac were just a teaching story or the Jewish version of a Koan, was it a lesson about discernment, or was that the first indication that the "God" of Abraham was really just a cruel Archon intent upon toying with all of us, or maybe just an invention of the writer of that story?
Indeed, this is the very heart of the matter.
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Don't worry, @Suzianne and @KellyJay -- "I" do still provisionally believe* in some kind of Cosmic Intelligence much greater and necessarily more comprehensive than any of ours -- it's the concepts and surmises and assertions of Earth that I reject.
However, I can understand the comfort and offer of certainty that texts and commentary upon texts might provide to those who might need such comfort and certainty, and those provided by the maintenance of traditions over time.
Not everyone is ready to completely "Let go and let God", nor should anyone be forced to do that before their time -- people and circumstances develop in their own time and in their own ways, and nobody here is comprehensibly developed enough to be anyone else's gardener.
_____
* While also remembering that things are as they are, no matter what we believe.
@Suzianne saidDo you believe all disagreement means hate? Can I disagree with you without hating you? Do I have to affirm everything you like to accept, or is that a form of hate to you, especially if I disagree as well?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vertical-morality-maga-christians_l_68dc8386e4b0b11989f00fb8
‘Vertical Morality’ Might Describe Why MAGA Christians Seem So Unchristian
This framework reveals why some MAGA-aligned Christians act in ways that contradict Jesus’ teachings.
By Caroline Bologna
Oct 6, 2025, 07:00 AM EDT
Updated Oct 6, 2025
For many America ...[text shortened]... ers.”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vertical-morality-maga-christians_l_68dc8386e4b0b11989f00fb8
@KellyJay saidThis article is not about hate.
Do you believe all disagreement means hate? Can I disagree with you without hating you? Do I have to affirm everything you like to accept, or is that a form of hate to you, especially if I disagree as well?
It is about people trained to accept authoritarianism because they think ALL morality (and therefore authority) comes down from above.
How you can miss this as the focus of the article is beyond me.
@Suzianne saidThat is all fine and good but I asked you, what I asked you. You think an authority figures should not enforce laws as written?
This article is not about hate.
It is about people trained to accept authoritarianism because they think ALL morality (and therefore authority) comes down from above.
How you can miss this as the focus of the article is beyond me.
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@KellyJay saidWhat you asked me about was 'hate'. Hate shouldn't (but often is, regardless) be involved in authority.
That is all fine and good but I asked you, what I asked you. You think an authority figures should not enforce laws as written?
As to this current post:
As written, yes, of course.
As they deem "right", in their sick twisted minds, no.
Case in point: theoretically, sending forces, such as ICE out to detain individuals suspected of being in the country illegally, until they get proper due process, yes. Using them as a personal army to inflict physical and psychological pain on an entire populace, including citizens, wearing masks meant to terrorize the populace, detaining people by the color of their skin, no.
@Suzianne saidThat is quite a statement. Why do you think hate is involved in authority?
What you asked me about was 'hate'. Hate shouldn't (but often is, regardless) be involved in authority.
As to this current post:
As written, yes, of course.
As they deem "right", in their sick twisted minds, no.
Case in point: theoretically, sending forces, such as ICE out to detain individuals suspected of being in the country illegally, until they get proper du ...[text shortened]... ens, wearing masks meant to terrorize the populace, detaining people by the color of their skin, no.
If laws are broken, shouldn’t authorities move to stop that?
@KellyJay saidSome people get self-righteous, and if religion is involved it often becomes like the Spanish Inquisition, where men thought they were doing the will of God, but they were only sating their own hatred of others. It takes a mighty dose of self-centered-ness and self-importance to equate one's own will with the will of God. Some begin to think they were 'chosen' to be the instrument of the will of God. They are never correct in their assumptions.
That is quite a statement. Why do you think hate is involved in authority?
If laws are broken, shouldn’t authorities move to stop that?
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@Suzianne saidReligion doesn’t have to be involved for the self-righteous to turn things into the Spanish Inquisition, and the will of God doesn’t have to be in play either for a mighty dose of self-centeredness and self-importance to make one feel they are righteously seeing things in such a way that they stop treating other people as less than. The trouble many have, including the religious, is that they can renounce something and start hating those doing something they dislike, and they become the very thing they claimed to hate. Complaining about the denial of free speech, they get to the point of shutting down others' speech, and are now what they claimed to hate.
Some people get self-righteous, and if religion is involved it often becomes like the Spanish Inquisition, where men thought they were doing the will of God, but they were only sating their own hatred of others. It takes a mighty dose of self-centered-ness and self-importance to equate one's own will with the will of God. Some begin to think they were 'chosen' to be the instrument of the will of God. They are never correct in their assumptions.