Vertical Morality vs. Horizontal Morality

@moonbus said
Work?? Wazzat?? I'm retired. Well, we'll continue the discussion later.

Thought for the day: even supposing there is any such thing as absolute truth, and that we can know this, it still does not follow that an absolute truth is a complete truth. An absolute truth, even supposing we have one, is always only a selection from a larger picture.

Yes, and as that is true, every truth without exception means they will not contradict another truth.

@Suzianne said
In my somewhat jaded opinion, religion's perfect place is application to someone after psychological assessment has declared them sane or cured of most imperfection thrust upon them by an imperfect upbringing. Religion is best applied to a brain that is ready for it. Not one that has been damaged by unstable interaction with a world that doesn't care if it lives or dies.

Personally, I believe that only those who acknowledge their imperfections can truly receive help from any source, whether it be a religion or not. God requires us to acknowledge our imperfections and turn away from the actions that spring from them; those who think they have none will never approach Him.

@KellyJay said
Personally, I believe that only those who acknowledge their imperfections can truly receive help from any source, whether it be a religion or not. God requires us to acknowledge our imperfections and turn away from the actions that spring from them; those who think they have none will never approach Him.

Untrue. There are many who go to church, well, religiously, who buy into the idea that they've read the Bible, they think they know, or have been forced to accept, what they think God's will is, and yet remain certifiably insane, thinking they will get favor from a God angry with humans for not following him, if they either help God by beating it into those people, or just killing them in order to serve people they regard as evil up to God. There are plenty who become convinced that God has chosen them to turn humanity back to God by performing all kinds of heinous crimes upon them. And they think they are working God's will. So yes, there can be insane people with a warped idea of God's will, who commit crimes in the name of yielding them to God's will. These people are no doubt religious, but they have perverted God's will into something evil in their own heads.

This is why I say religion is best applied to a sane brain. Problems arise when psychologically damaged people accept the externally applied structure of religion and they run with that and use it to excuse their own behavior, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

Then there are others who leave all the big ideas up to someone else with more charisma than they have, accepting that "God has chosen them" (or some such), and that's how cults gain adherents.

@Suzianne said
Untrue. There are many who go to church, well, religiously, who buy into the idea that they've read the Bible, they think they know, or have been forced to accept, what they think God's will is, and yet remain certifiably insane, thinking they will get favor from a God angry with humans for not following him, if they either help God by beating it into those people, o ...[text shortened]... they have, accepting that "God has chosen them" (or some such), and that's how cults gain adherents.

I don’t care about those who only go to church; that does not make one a Christian, that only makes one who goes to church. If someone thinks they are what God wants them to be, regardless of how they behave, and they feel better about themselves by comparing themselves to others, they are prideful and unrepentant.

Even going to an AA meeting, you have to admit that your life has issues; if you cannot recognize that, then even AA is not for you, meaning you can attend all the meetings, and nothing will change.

As far as preverting God’s will is concerned, how do you know what that is?

@KellyJay said
Yes, and as that is true, every truth without exception means they will not contradict another truth.

Just as you've asked me, how do you personally know what is truth? Something someone told you as you were growing up? We are faced every day with choosing what we will see as truth.

A Christian's truth is not the same as a Jew's truth or the same as a Muslim's truth, and yet all those religions have religious "truths".

Furthermore, two Christians may not have the exact same truth, or two Jews or two Muslims. Truth is not nearly as "absolute" as you claim.

@KellyJay said
I don’t care about those who only go to church; that does not make one a Christian, that only makes one who goes to church. If someone thinks they are what God wants them to be, regardless of how they behave, and they feel better about themselves by comparing themselves to others, they are prideful and unrepentant.

Even going to an AA meeting, you have to admit that your ...[text shortened]... nothing will change.

As far as preverting God’s will is concerned, how do you know what that is?

Spoken like a true 'absolutist'.

You aren't taking my points in, you're not thinking about them, you're naysaying them without consideration. This is the result of someone speaking from a fixed point, who thinks his point is the be all, end all of the conversation, and certainly not someone who wishes to understand a viewpoint not your own.

You ask questions, but you don't even consider the answer. You just plow on, as if you never heard it. It's not just me who sees this either, others have complained about it before, in harsher terms.

@Suzianne said
Spoken like a true 'absolutist'.

You aren't taking my points in, you're not thinking about them, you're naysaying them without consideration. This is the result of someone speaking from a fixed point, who thinks his point is the be all, end all of the conversation, and certainly not someone who wishes to understand a viewpoint not your own.

You ask questions, but you ...[text shortened]... t. It's not just me who sees this either, others have complained about it before, in harsher terms.

You deny absolutes then you lose all ability to say some one is wrong, you can say you disapprove,wjich is not the same.

@Suzianne said
Just as you've asked me, how do you personally know what is truth? Something someone told you as you were growing up? We are faced every day with choosing what we will see as truth.

A Christian's truth is not the same as a Jew's truth or the same as a Muslim's truth, and yet all those religions have religious "truths".

Furthermore, two Christians may not have the exact same truth, or two Jews or two Muslims. Truth is not nearly as "absolute" as you claim.

The truth does not come in flavors yours, mine, and theirs. If something is true it is true for everyone at all times, and everywhere. If not nothing is, it all degrades into personal opinions, and might makes right!

@Suzianne said
Just as you've asked me, how do you personally know what is truth? Something someone told you as you were growing up? We are faced every day with choosing what we will see as truth.

A Christian's truth is not the same as a Jew's truth or the same as a Muslim's truth, and yet all those religions have religious "truths".

Furthermore, two Christians may not have the exact same truth, or two Jews or two Muslims. Truth is not nearly as "absolute" as you claim.

Muslims believe that the Koran is only an excerpt from a complete work in God's possession. They also believe that not everything in the Koran is forever-truth; some bits are situational and are abrogated by other bits. Unfortunately, the verses of the Koran are not ordered chronologically, but by length, so there is scholarly disagreement about which bits abrogate which other bits. Still, Islam accepts the idea that an absolute truth is never complete; completeness is possible only for Allah, not for humans.

There is a remarkable bit in the Koran where the angel says to Mohammed that "to every people, a messenger is sent, and it is not needful for you (Mohammed, and by implication anyone else for that matter) to know who the other messengers were." What a splendid thought--if we follow that thought to its logical conclusion, we must accept not only that different messengers were sent to different peoples, different cultures, in different epochs, but that the content of the messages might have been different to or even incompatible with the content of the message given to Mohammed to give to the Arabs. This same idea must apply to the other messengers, including Jesus: his message was appropriate to the Jews in the Levant at that time. Same applies to Paul: his message was appropriate to the Greeks and Romans at that time. Paul evidently thought the literal end of the world would occur within the lifetimes of those then present, hence his admonition that people be celibate, because children shouldn't have to witness the great conflagration Paul thought was coming in a matter of few years at most. Well, Paul got it wrong; his fragment of 'truth' may have been absolute, but it wasn't complete and it does not apply to everyone forever and ever.

@KellyJay said
The truth does not come in flavors yours, mine, and theirs. If something is true it is true for everyone at all times, and everywhere. If not nothing is, it all degrades into personal opinions, and might makes right!

Spoken like the Grand Inquisitor himself: "anything that disagrees with what I say must be wrong."

You present a false dichotomy.

@moonbus said
Spoken like the Grand Inquisitor himself: "anything that disagrees with what I say must be wrong."

You present a false dichotomy.

You didn’t disagree with the point you simply made it about me. What part of what I said is wrong, you have logical reasonings to dispute it?

@KellyJay said
You didn’t disagree with the point you simply made it about me. What part of what I said is wrong, you have logical reasonings to dispute it?

If absolute truth is never complete but always only partial, we cannot know that other portions of absolute truth are compatible with the portion we happen to be familiar with.

@moonbus said
If absolute truth is never complete but always only partial, we cannot know that other portions of absolute truth are compatible with the portion we happen to be familiar with.

No, the absolute truth is always complete! Our understanding is never complete, and when we encounter contradictions, we recognize that something in our understanding is flawed, not the truth itself.

@KellyJay said
No, the absolute truth is always complete! Our understanding is never complete, and when we encounter contradictions, we recognize that something in our understanding is flawed, not the truth itself.

You're saying you personally have not only absolute truth, but complete absolute truth!?

This conversation is over. There's no point in talking with insane people.

@moonbus said
You're saying you personally have not only absolute truth, but complete absolute truth!?

This conversation is over. There's no point in talking with insane people.

I’m saying I have nothing to do with absolute truth; it stands and falls without my acknowledgment, and I may ignore it. I do not create it, I own no part of it, I either find something true or it isn’t. Since truth never contradicts itself, all truth is absolute.