Very Few Real Christians

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus taught differently.

If you call Him "Lord", Jesus would ask you "Why?"

He isn't going to ask why, he is going to talk to those that belong
Him and those that do not. Those that do belong to Him are not going
to be bringing to Him their good works, He sees them, but they will
be trusting in His righteousness. The good works again will be there,
it is a bi-product of a right relationship.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
He isn't going to ask why, he is going to talk to those that belong
Him and those that do not. Those that do belong to Him are not going
to be bringing to Him their good works, He sees them, but they will
be trusting in His righteousness. The good works again will be there,
it is a bi-product of a right relationship.
Kelly

Not true, the scriptures specifically say that Jesus will ask TOO who is worthy.

Originally posted by KellyJay
He isn't going to ask why, he is going to talk to those that belong
Him and those that do not. Those that do belong to Him are not going
to be bringing to Him their good works, He sees them, but they will
be trusting in His righteousness. The good works again will be there,
it is a bi-product of a right relationship.
Kelly

I understand that this is what you believe.

But the fact remains that Jesus didn't teach what you believe. Jesus taught "salvation by righteousness", not "salvation by grace". See the passages I posted earlier.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I understand that this is what you believe.

But the fact remains that Jesus didn't teach what you believe. Jesus taught "salvation by righteousness", not "salvation by grace". See the passages I posted earlier.

Salvation has always been by Grace.

Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.

But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.

It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?

Originally posted by josephw
Salvation has always been by Grace.

Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.

But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.

It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?

Not true Joseph, in fact, the theif that died next to Jesus had to escape from the cross, run around for the entire day doing good deeds, and then come back to die on the cross nest to Jesus just so he would be deemed "good enough" to enter heaven.

Originally posted by josephw
Salvation has always been by Grace.

Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.

But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.

It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?

The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.

So— Are Jews today who faithfully keep the Torah* still saved? Or has that rug been ripped out from under them?

[An interesting aside: “Salvation”—as in eternal life—was (and is) simply not the centerpiece of Judaism that it is in Christianity. Very few Christians seems to actually understand either the Judaism of the first century C.E. (aside from some relatively fringe apocalyptic sects) or the Judaism of today.]

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* Torah doesn’t mean strictly “law”, but that was how the Hebrew got translated into Greek (as nomos).

Originally posted by josephw
Salvation has always been by Grace.

Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.

But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.

It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?

It may be "scriptural", but it wasn't what Jesus taught.

You should really take the time to understand the words attributed to Jesus prior to the crucifixion. By and large, they are quite deep and profound.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b] The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.

So— Are Jews today who faithfully keep the Torah* still saved? Or has that rug been ripped out from under them?

[An interesting aside: “Salvation”—as in eternal life—was (and is) simply not the centerpiece of Judaism that it is in Christianity. Very fe ...[text shortened]... t mean strictly “law”, but that was how the Hebrew got translated into Greek (as nomos).[/b]

They would need the temple. But it would do no good.

Faith is acting on what God says.

God said to Cain and Abel, "sacrifice this lamb". To Noah, "build an ark". To the Jews, "keep the law". It is the Word of God that one places one's faith in.

Today God says, "trust in what my Son has done on the cross and you will be saved."

Saved by Grace through faith.

Originally posted by whodey
Not true, the scriptures specifically say that Jesus will ask TOO who is worthy.

Okay, maybe none come to my mind, you care to show me on
judgment day that Jesus asks that, what book and verse?
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Many people "call themselves Christian". Many people say they "have a relationship with God in Christ". Many people say "being [a Christian] is what God does in us". All are "simply people putting labels on themselves".

John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is gl ...[text shortened]... ill tell them,'I never knew you. [b]Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]

These the verses you are using to support your works of righteousness
get you into heaven? You have any others, or is this it?
Kelly

I have a sermon you could listen too, to get some understanding as
what I think makes someone a real Christian. I heard this early in
my Christian walk never forgot the message and remembered the
title of the sermon. I've heard a lot of sermons in my Christian walk
very few I recall like this one.

Ten Shekels and a Shirt
Judges 17
Paris Reidhead

Its is a little dry in the beginning but will challenge in the end.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Real Christians are those that are right with God in Christ, I cannot
give you a check list to look at.
Kelly

By how do you know that is the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'? As far as I can tell it is only your definition. You have not yet given me the 'real definition of the phrase 'real definition'.

I merely wish to point out that definitions do not hold truth value and are not necessarily universally accepted. You can never impose a definition on others you can only explain what you mean by it. It is a waste of time arguing over the meaning of a definition. It is more productive to simply state what you mean by a word and listen to what others mean by the word and then agree on a common usage going forward. At no point can your usage be truer than another persons usage.

At least I now know what you mean by 'real Christian'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
By how do you know that is the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'? As far as I can tell it is only your definition. You have not yet given me the 'real definition of the phrase 'real definition'.

I merely wish to point out that definitions do not hold truth value and are not necessarily universally accepted. You can never impose a definition on othe ...[text shortened]... r than another persons usage.

At least I now know what you mean by 'real Christian'.

I told you what a real Christian was, someone who is right with God
in Jesus Chirst, it is a relationship with God in Christ. If you do not
have God, it does not matter what kind of "things, works, labels,
groups" you belong to, none of that matters! Even Paul said he
counted the things he could use to justify himself as nothing. We
cannot earn our salvation, it is by grace not of ourselves. If you
attempt to earn it, basically your telling God He now owes you.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
These the verses you are using to support your works of righteousness
get you into heaven? You have any others, or is this it?
Kelly

It isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.

John 12:35-36
So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light."

John 17:20-23
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."

Luke 6:43-49
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."

Originally posted by whodey
Not true. We all have a sense of right and wrong and Christ nailed it on the head when he said that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. No one can deny this law although we have all violated it from time to time.

Right and wrong is one thing. Sin is a completely different thing.

Sin is definitly a christian thing, atheists doesn't sin. Perhaps they do wrongs from time to time, but they never sin. Sin is not in their world.