15 Oct 09
Originally posted by KellyJayYes, you told me what you meant by the phrase 'real Christian'. I notice you don't want to admit your error in claiming that that was the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'. But we can leave that alone.
I told you what a real Christian was, someone who is right with God
in Jesus Chirst, it is a relationship with God in Christ.
If you do not have God, it does not matter what kind of "things, works, labels,
groups" you belong to, none of that matters!
So now you are going further and telling us what it means to be 'right with God'.
This now is no longer a definition, but a claim and thus debatable.
I tend to side with ThinkOfOne in that Jesus' teachings seem to differ significantly from Pauls and everyone taking the other side (from ThinkOfOne) seems to only ever quote Paul and ignore any of Jesus' teachings that ThinkOfOne quotes.
If you attempt to earn it, basically your telling God He now owes you.
Kelly
Now you are coming into line with knightmeister and his claim that every good decision you make needs Gods assistance and you must thank God for helping you to choose wisely.
When my son does something good that I have asked him to do and earns a reward I have offered, I do not take it as rude if he says that I now I owe him. You seem to be implying that it is rude - or that it is impossible for God to owe anything. Or am I missing something?
16 Oct 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJohn 17:20-23
It isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.
John 12:35-36
So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you ...[text shortened]... e brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."[/b]
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."
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Now , having quoted Jesus in this verse do you have any idea what he means when he says " I in them and You in me" ? Does this not logically imply that Jesus is meant to live within a believer? How might that happen do you think?
What are you going to do now? Continue throwing out quotes like this or stop for a minute and think about what they actually mean?
16 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by 667joeas seen from other threads you've started (which attack Christians), that you actually have very little undersatnding. You are a cherry picker of the highest order
It's my understanding that Jesus said to be his true follower, you must sell all your belongings and give the proceeds to the poor, you must love your enemies, and ,if attacked, you must show love and not fight back. How do you call yourselves Christians if you don't do these three things since clearly, most who call themselves Christians don't do these three things?
18 Oct 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadJesus' and Paul's teachings do not differ, they are the same. I've
Yes, you told me what you meant by the phrase 'real Christian'. I notice you don't want to admit your error in claiming that that was the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'. But we can leave that alone.
[b]If you do not have God, it does not matter what kind of "things, works, labels,
groups" you belong to, none of that matters!
So now you are ...[text shortened]... rude - or that it is impossible for God to owe anything. Or am I missing something?[/b]
not added to what I said about being a Christian either, if you do not
have God, you can still have all the other things and it will not matter
or turn you into a Christian. A Christian has God by Jesus Christ, due
to what Jesus Christ did for us. We do not morph into someone who
is right with God because we are good enough by our good works
or our own righteousness.
The squabble centers on what it is that gets us right with God, what
gets us with God is what God did, we respond to Him, but it is always
Him reaching down to us. If you want to dress up in your righteousness
by your good works and apply to God as someone that has earned a
right to be a Christian you don't need Christ for that. It isn't about not
doing good works to get good enough, we will do them but they are a
byproduct of our salvation. Our works will be a demonstration of our
faith, as we walk in it, they will be a natural progression not something
that we are attempting to dress ourselves up in before God.
Kelly
18 Oct 09
Originally posted by twhitehead"Now you are coming into line with knightmeister and his claim that every good decision you make needs Gods assistance and you must thank God for helping you to choose wisely."
Yes, you told me what you meant by the phrase 'real Christian'. I notice you don't want to admit your error in claiming that that was the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'. But we can leave that alone.
[b]If you do not have God, it does not matter what kind of "things, works, labels,
groups" you belong to, none of that matters!
So now you are ...[text shortened]... rude - or that it is impossible for God to owe anything. Or am I missing something?[/b]
I'm at the point that I credit God for all the good choices I make, yes.
I'm at the point where I honestly believe God is working in me, getting
me to the place where I can be better than I would be on my own.
I'm at the point where I believe if God had not entered into my life I
would have remained on the path I was on which would have lead me
into a very bad place.
I'm implying that God's gift of our salvation rests alone in Jesus'
blood that was shed for us, if I now say that I must add to that to be
right with God, I'm telling you and everyone else, Jesus' blood isn't
enough. I'm also telling you that if I answer the call of God, respond
to this great gift God has given to us that we will do not only good
works, but can also do great ones. We will have the Spirit of God with
us leading and guiding us, teaching us about the One who sent Him.
Kelly
18 Oct 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOkay, could you give me a little more details on what you mean by
It isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.
John 12:35-36
So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you ...[text shortened]... e brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."[/b]
a transformation? We may be in agreement and just got off on the
wrong foot as it were.
Kelly
18 Oct 09
Originally posted by 667joe"You have erred"--grasshopper. Jesus told ONE man to sell all his belongings and give bthe proceeds to the poor: not ALL who followed Him.
It's my understanding that Jesus said to be his true follower, you must sell all your belongings and give the proceeds to the poor, you must love your enemies, and ,if attacked, you must show love and not fight back. How do you call yourselves Christians if you don't do these three things since clearly, most who call themselves Christians don't do these three things?
18 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayHere Jesus speaks of being transformed from a "slave" to a "son". From one who commits sin to one who is righteous, i.e., one who keeps His commandments, one who follows the will of His father, one who does not work iniquity, one who is one with God, one whose good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good, etc.
Okay, could you give me a little more details on what you mean by
a transformation? We may be in agreement and just got off on the
wrong foot as it were.
Kelly
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
18 Oct 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOnePlease give the translation you are using when quoting scripture.
Here Jesus speaks of being transformed from a "slave" to a "son". From one who commits sin to one who is righteous, i.e., one who keeps His commandments, one who follows the will of His father, one who does not work iniquity, one who is one with God, one whose good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good, etc.
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was sayin ...[text shortened]... on does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."[/b]
Kelly
18 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThere are over a dozen parallel translations available here:
Please give the translation you are using when quoting scripture.
Kelly
http://bible.cc/
It's a good site for comparing the various translations and looking at the Greek.
What do you think of what Jesus taught?
18 Oct 09
4 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne=========================================
It isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.
John 12:35-36
So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you e brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."[/b]
It isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.
===================================
It is both.
"For if we were enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we shall be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)
1.) As to the PAST - having BEEN RECONCILED - that is for eternity, reconciled to God through Christ's death.
2.) Much more having BEEN RECONCILED, as to the future - "we SHALL BE SAVED in His LIFE .... HAVING BEEN RECONCILED"
Let's see it again, (discarding any complaint that we are not allowed to quote Paul)
1.) RECONCILED - past tense. That includes redeemed, justified, forgiven, having been granted the gift of eternal life.
2.) Much more than, as to the future - SAVED in the whole sphere and realm of His imparted and indwelling divine life. We the reconclied to God will be SAVED (salvation) in the realm of the imparted LIFE of Jesus Christ within us, ie. transformation, conformation, building up together, glorification, transfiguration, even rewarded.
Step ONE is for step TWO.
Step TWO must be preceeded by step ONE.
Having been eternally reconciled we the saved "much more" will have a salvation in His life. Because He lives. He lives within those who have been reconciled.
As to the past man's sins must be dealt with. As to the future man must be transformed so as to live out from the source of the divine life which he is born again with.
It should be obvious that just being forgiven may meet our purpose of being free from from condemnation. But learning to live out the indwelling Christ meets God's purpose to have sons express His life and nature.
Now you quoted John's Gospel. But if I quote John's gospel elsewhere I bet you'll fall back on the "Mark's Gospel only" excuse.
Right? "Only Mark can be trusted to reveal what Jesus taught because it is the earliest gospel." Isn't that the logic you'll use? Only Mark can inform us because it was the first gospel.
Mark has the least amount of the actual teaching of Jesus. I didn't say no teaching. I said Mark has the least amount of His actual teaching.
If I am wrong and you are will to refer to John's Gospel also then your doctrine of eternal redemption through works of righteousness will not stand.
"You are ALREADY CLEAN because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you." (See John 15:3,4)
Because they had received Christ word in belief they were ALREADY justified before God - made clean positionally. Now they should abide in Him and allow Him to abide in them - mutual abiding for fruit bearing.
John's whole thesis for writing his Gospel (which can be trusted): - "But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:31)
18 Oct 09
Originally posted by jaywillSome parts of the bible say you can go to heaven if you accept Jesus, but other parts say you also have to do good works. Then, another part of the bible says once Jesus forgives you for your sins, if you sin again, you will not go to heaven. If this is true, there will be very few people in heaven. With all of these inconsistencies, who knows what to believe?
[b]=========================================
It isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.
===================================
It is both.
"For if we were enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we shall be saved in His life ...[text shortened]... s is the Christ, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:31)[/b]
19 Oct 09
4 edits
Originally posted by 667joe======================================
Some parts of the bible say you can go to heaven if you accept Jesus, but other parts say you also have to do good works. Then, another part of the bible says once Jesus forgives you for your sins, if you sin again, you will not go to heaven. If this is true, there will be very few people in heaven. With all of these inconsistencies, who knows what to believe?
Some parts of the bible say you can go to heaven if you accept Jesus, but other parts say you also have to do good works. Then, another part of the bible says once Jesus forgives you for your sins, if you sin again, you will not go to heaven. If this is true, there will be very few people in heaven. With all of these inconsistencies, who knows what to believe?
==============================================
This is a misunderstanding on your part.
These are not insurmountable theological problems. If I help you step by step to understand I am not sure you will appreciate it.
But the best way to understand the part of the Bible you do not understand is to respond with obedience to the part you do understand.
Why should God waste more light on a person who rejects the first light He gave them? What have you done with the part that you did understand ? If you closed your mind and heart and accumulated more and more information, you may be confused.
To him who has will more be given. He who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
If the Holy Spirit of God convicted a person that she should believe in Christ and she refused, perhaps God will not grant that person more light because the light they had they rejected.
So it often is with people who try to object that there is too much that they don't understand in the Bible as an excuse to disbelieve in Christ.
19 Oct 09
================================
Some parts of the bible say you can go to heaven if you accept Jesus, but other parts say you also have to do good works. Then, another part of the bible says once Jesus forgives you for your sins, if you sin again, you will not go to heaven. If this is true, there will be very few people in heaven. With all of these inconsistencies, who knows what to believe?
======================================
I have written this before.
In God's salvation a person gets to be forgiven of every sin they ever committed as if they NEVER sinned. God not only forgives but forgets that person's sins.
Though you get to be forgiven of all sins there is something you do not get. You do not get to remain the same kind of person forever as you were when you sinned. You must be transformed and you will be transformed.
You can postpone it. You cannot put it off forever. Having this general understanding the difficulties concerning paradoxical passages on salvation make very good sense.