1. SubscriberFMF
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    04 May '09 14:58
    My local cafe is now teetering on the edge of closure after its owner fell into the hands of Pentacostals and lost all ability to manage the business.

    Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?
  2. Joined
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    04 May '09 15:02
    Originally posted by FMF
    My local cafe is now teetering on the edge of closure after its owner fell into the hands of Pentacostals and lost all ability to manage the business.

    Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?
    I wouldn't defend anything that had that effect on a person's livelihood.
  3. Standard memberScriabin
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    04 May '09 17:28
    Originally posted by FMF
    My local cafe is now teetering on the edge of closure after its owner fell into the hands of Pentacostals and lost all ability to manage the business.

    Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?
    explain -- sounds interesting
  4. Joined
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    04 May '09 21:02
    Originally posted by FMF
    My local cafe is now teetering on the edge of closure after its owner fell into the hands of Pentacostals and lost all ability to manage the business.

    Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?
    I'll defend it!! 😠

    Now if you wuuld just explain what I am defending it would make my job much easier. 😛
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    05 May '09 08:501 edit
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    explain -- sounds interesting
    WARNING: soap-opera-esque post follows

    Hold onto your hats for a modest tale of small town tragedy in a far off land that could be anywhere. The Indonesian wife-of-an-Italian-white-guy "owner" of a local bar & cafe (called Laba-Laba or "spider" ) returned in January, leaving a one year old baby - who'd not yet taken first steps or uttered a first word - behind in Italy, and showing herself to be utterly emersed in a new an unfamiliar fanatacism.

    She sacked the morning manager and the evening manager, who'd looked after the place for five years or so without fault and with cafe-defining personality. She replaced them with two very very serious christians - Pentacostals, it seems - who are not family members or conventional acquaintences, indeed there is a definite air of them having been "assigned" to her in some way. That's just my feeling: so strike it from the record if you want to find your own way to the truth of this whole matter. The three of them every day held a prayer session in the cafe. Right in the middle of the cafe, shortly after opening the shutters. This involved screaming, crying, faked speaking in tongues (faked? Well... is it hysteria, or are there those among us who can speak in tongues at 11.15am every day?), kneeling down, hands raised to the ceiling, tears streaming down their faces (I am not exaggerating). Customers visibly turned on their heels and sought coffee and fried banana elsewhere.

    She had some awful "clowns on velvet" type Christian murals put up. She banned all non-Christian rock music and designated a dozen soporific and knuckle-biting CDs that had to be played at all time (I am an opinionated music lover, so strike "soporific and knuckle-biting" from the record if you want to rinse me out your own way to the truth). She closed the cafe on Sundays (real clever in a skin of yer teeth tourist sector). She discontinued the sale of liquor and wine (so now the only profitable things the cafe sells are food and juice, meaning their days are probably numbered).

    Then it got a little nasty. She halved the salaries of all the Muslims (all but 1 of 10 people) saying "God does not want me to pay you what you were being paid before" (I am not joking or exaggerating), she doubled the pay of the one and only Catholic working there, saying "Jesus likes a hard worker" (verbatim, I am not joking).

    She then she refused to pay the compulsory monthly Rp.150,000 fee for local bouncer services (yes, a racket, but a real service - I've seen it in action with fighting-drunk foreigners, and it's paid by every single cafe, and approved of by the police), so the 'preman' (local tough guys) said there would be trouble, to which she answered "The Holy Spirit will protect this cafe" (I am not joking). Ah but alas, the Holy Spirit didn't protect the cafe. The preman came a week or so later and smashed up all the chairs and some of the tables. The police came and closed the cafe down indefinitely (i.e. until the cafe pays the preman, basically, which they now have after beeing shut for a week).

    During the shutdown (which quite predictably had proved acheived nothing, except that the Holy Spirit does not work in the restaurant security business) the staff were on unpaid 'leave' (looking for jobs, for sure, 2-3 have already gone) and when one rang up while it was still closed and asked what was the state of play and reminding the owner that the staff were basically suffering their way through a financial disaster, the owner replied that "I am suffering too. And don't forget that Jesus suffered for us all." This was moot in the minds of the Muslim staff. Even the Christian barmaid failed to truly get the Jesus angle. A more relevant angle was the plain fact that the owner could no longer be trusted to keep her staff safe in the workplace. The trashing of the place had sent customers packing and had terrified the staff.

    The Catholic barmaid, already embarrassed by her pay rise amidst all the Jesus-mandated slashing of wages, then found herself under withering pressure - which she steadfastly withstood - to join in the daily crying-speaking-in-tongues-screaming sessions, even to the point of being threatened that "Jesus won't think you're a hard worker anymore if you refuse to pray with us". (more or less verbatim). The barmaid is trying to find another job. Today. Tomorrow. As soon as possible.

    Here comes my armchair - or barstool - analysis...

    My best guess is that her marriage was on the rocks and a baby was produced as a kind of 'glue'. This came after 7 childless years, the childlessness may well have been a pre-nuptual agreement based on the husband's preference - along with 'we'll live in Italy, not Indonesia'. So perhaps the baby was produced to try and hold them together. But it didn't work. This is my conjecture here, remember. There may have possibly been interference from fussing Italian in-laws who may have always thought their son married beneath himself - he met her in the same cafe 8 years ago, when she was a barmaid herself. She then basically has a mental breakdown - walks out on a baby who cannot yet walk or talk and spends 3 months (still counting) in Yogyakarta (this city of 3,000,000 in Central Java), filling her now empty life with raw religion (could have been booze instead, or adultery, or model railways), never opening her mouth or deciding anything without citing Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit (and I stress that I am not exaggerating about the stuff that's getting said and the justifications being dished out... "Jesus has told me to do this", "God wishes it this way, I do not dare disobey him", "The Holy Spirit hates to hear you complain about money, and I'll hear no more of your complaining" ).

    A parallel theory is that the preman may have had more than their monthly 15 dollars on their mind, but instead the local chapter of Islamic Fundementalist F.P.I. (daft bunch of thugs, if it weren't "Islam" it'd be the local soccer team that justified their strutting, fulminations, gangsterish violence, and overtight bandanas) is behind the trashing and closure of the cafe after the shocking treatment of its mostly Muslim staff at the hands of a sad and empty woman who appears to have been swallowed up by people from a Pentacostal cult.

    Anyone think I am getting this all wrong?
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    05 May '09 11:482 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    WARNING: soap-opera-esque post follows

    Hold onto your hats for a modest tale of small town tragedy in a far off land that could be anywhere. The Indonesian wife-of-an-Italian-white-guy "owner" of a local bar & cafe (called Laba-Laba or "spider" ) returned in January, leaving a one year old baby - who'd not yet taken first steps or uttered a first word - behin

    Anyone think I am getting this all wrong?
    Well that is truly a sad story. In fact, I feel more sorry for her than I do the staff that she mistreated. I'm no psychologist/psychiatrist, but I think she most definitely needs some help and perhaps even medicated.

    I often stand in awe in regards to how people follow after cults like that of Jim Jones and company. However, it is after I hear stories like this that it all makes more sense.

    There are a lot of broken and hurting people out there, eh FMF?
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    05 May '09 13:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    I feel more sorry for her than I do the staff that she mistreated.
    Well if I'm right about her marital woes, she's shafting the dirt poor barstaff and cooks (who earn approx $50 a month) in order to fund her new 'on her own two feet' reality. So considering your political persuasion, I can see you might find yourself rooting for her rather than the ten working class Indonesians with their husbands, wives and children. 😀

    As an entrepreneur is she acting within her rights?

    As a Christian is she acting within her rights?

    Do you think Christians around her have any obligation to intervene?

    With raw religion of this kind flying around, what do you make of the raw religion of the F.P.I. kind (see above)? Swings and roundabouts? Or yet more proof of the 'sheer indecency of Islam'?
  8. Standard memberScriabin
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    05 May '09 14:371 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Well if I'm right about her marital woes, she's shafting the dirt poor barstaff and cooks (who earn approx $50 a month) in order to fund her new 'on her own two feet' reality. So considering your political persuasion, I can see you might find yourself rooting for her rather than the ten working class Indonesians with their husbands, wives and children. 😀

    As ...[text shortened]... (see above)? Swings and roundabouts? Or yet more proof of the 'sheer indecency of Islam'?
    you probably have all this factually correct. doesn't really matter -- let's assume, arguendo, you do.

    why do you raise the issue of rights?

    she owns the business? does she own the land, the equipment, or merely lease it? Does she have rights to all this under Indonesian law?

    Do her workers have any government-guaranteed rights they can assert regarding their pay, the discrimination, etc.?

    Do you ask whether her behavior is correct? We know it is not -given your facts, she's a basket case, mentally. This is what happens when people cannot cope with that which is the case and live entirely within their own heads -- belief substituting for reality.

    by turning to religion, and one that is at odds with her surrounding population, she seeks to distinguish herself while appealing to a power higher than theirs. She is empowering herself in her own mind using a false appeal to authority.

    As being economically incompetent as well as illogical is probably not legally actionable or punishable, the best solution for the workers is clearly to seek other employment ASAP.

    Let this unfortunate mental case of a woman run her cafe into the ground -- unless there are legal means available to compel her to change her behavior regarding pay, religious harassment, etc.

    I'd be interested in hearing about Indonesian law regarding property rights, business, workers' rights, and discrimination.

    And, no, I don't see how this reflects badly on Islam or any of the blameless Muslim employees or the community.

    You might try offering the proprietess a few poisonous snakes and asking her to show how Jesus, his Dad, and the Holy Spirit (whoever or whatever that is supposed to be), guides her in handling same.

    I suggest you not hand her the snakes, personally, but merely make the suggestion that snake handling might help convert the multitudes.

    then let the Cleopatra Cure do its best -- only way I know to rid one's domicile or community of these pesky Pentacostal types.
  9. Pepperland
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    05 May '09 17:21
    Originally posted by FMF
    My local cafe is now teetering on the edge of closure after its owner fell into the hands of Pentacostals and lost all ability to manage the business.

    Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?
    Not a surprise.

    Pentecostals are backward people, and their influence is expected to cause harm.
  10. Pepperland
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    05 May '09 17:25
    Originally posted by FMF
    WARNING: soap-opera-esque post follows

    Hold onto your hats for a modest tale of small town tragedy in a far off land that could be anywhere. The Indonesian wife-of-an-Italian-white-guy "owner" of a local bar & cafe (called Laba-Laba or "spider" ) returned in January, leaving a one year old baby - who'd not yet taken first steps or uttered a first word - behin ...[text shortened]...

    Anyone think I am getting this all wrong?
    Whoa, that story is crazy.

    It really is strange how people are brainwashed by cults.
  11. Subscriberduecer
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    05 May '09 19:48
    The only moral thing that she would have to do would be to discontinue the sale of liqour...period (yet even that could be tolerated under certain circumstances). Everything else is a form of fanatisicm that tries to force its beliefs on those within their sphere of influence. Another shameful Christian witness.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    06 May '09 01:32
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    why do you raise the issue of rights?
    Indeed, I made a hash of my response to whodey late last night.

    I split the query into two parts: (1) As an entrepreneur is she acting within her rights? and (2) As a Christian is she acting within her rights? which bleached it of my intended meaning. What I meant was:

    As a Christian entrepreneur is she acting within her rights?

    The combination is rather different from the sum of its parts.

    She hasn't really broken any laws and she's a sincere frevent believer. My question was aimed at whodey who might be described as a Wajoma-ist-with-Faith...
  13. Standard memberScriabin
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    06 May '09 03:07
    Originally posted by FMF
    Indeed, I made a hash of my response to whodey late last night.

    I split the query into two parts: (1) As an entrepreneur is she acting within her rights? and (2) As a Christian is she acting within her rights? which bleached it of my intended meaning. What I meant was:

    As a Christian entrepreneur is she acting within her rights?

    The combination is rat ...[text shortened]... believer. My question was aimed at whodey who might be described as a Wajoma-ist-with-Faith...
    not sure of the answer as I'm not educated in Indonesian labor law and do not know the status of any possible legal proscription on the kind of discrimination you described.

    applying my own country's standards, I'd say she's busted.
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    06 May '09 03:12
    Originally posted by FMF
    Well if I'm right about her marital woes, she's shafting the dirt poor barstaff and cooks (who earn approx $50 a month) in order to fund her new 'on her own two feet' reality. So considering your political persuasion, I can see you might find yourself rooting for her rather than the ten working class Indonesians with their husbands, wives and children. 😀

    As ...[text shortened]... (see above)? Swings and roundabouts? Or yet more proof of the 'sheer indecency of Islam'?
    Is she acting within her rights? I don't know anything about that side of the world regarding this matter, so I couldn't tell you. Is she acting within her rights as a Christian? Well the example has been laid by Chirst so she needs to start acting like him if she claims to be his follower. My guess is that she looks up to the Pentacostals as her guide rather than Christ. Nore than likely she knows next to nothing about his teachings other than what the organization tells her. In fact, I knew a guy who was a JW and he told me that he is not even free to read the Bible alone. To read it, you first need "guidence" to interpret it "correctly". From my perspective, that is how cults are formed. The organization or charismatic leader becomes their god rather than the real deal.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    08 May '09 16:54
    Originally posted by FMF
    My local cafe is now teetering on the edge of closure after its owner fell into the hands of Pentacostals and lost all ability to manage the business.

    Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?
    What about pentacostals has wronged this guy?
    What is it about being Pentacostal do you find so wrong?
    Be specific.
    Kelly
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