VoidSpirit

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Hope he gets well soon.

Indeed.

Originally posted by boonon
I disagree.

Prayer does work.

My son had a life threatening accident at our home recently. I held him in my arms and prayed over him as we waited for the paramedics to arrive. When they arrived and did all of their medical tests, it was determined that his vital signs were stable and he did not need to be flown to the hospital so he went by ambulace.
is spiritual and will never fit in to the laws of physics. My son is alive because of prayer.

Correlation does not equal causation.

The fact that you prayed over your son, and then he lived, is not evidence that
praying over your son CAUSED him to live.


And this is an incredibly arrogant and insulting position to take because it basically flat
out implies that anyone and everyone who has had a loved one in a similar situation
and prayed for them and they didn't live was either not worthy or not praying hard
enough.


The fact that your surgeon couldn't explain (allegedly) why or how your son survived
just means that it's a mystery. It means we don't know.
It doesn't mean that you get to jump strait to magic supernatural omnipotent beings intervening.

To make that assertion you need evidence that that is actually what happened.
As it stands you simply don't know how it happened.
You have no evidence FOR any supernatural explanation.

Most likely answer is simply luck.

Your sons survival in the circumstances might be extremely improbable, but with the huge number of
people involved in accidents you would expect a small number to 'miraculously' survive against the odds.

Just like it's extremely unlikely for you to win the lottery, but someone wins most weeks.


It's also possible that you holding your son and comforting him helped him fight for life and that kept him
alive. Which is fantastic, not supernatural.


I am really pleased your son didn't die, but this example isn't evidence that prayers work.
Given that parents (who are religious) are extremely likely to pray over injured and (potentially) dying
children, and that a small proportion of those are likely to make an unexplained (because life is messy and
complicated) and apparently 'miraculous' recovery just by the laws of large numbers...
Your example is the kind of thing you EXPECT to see in the situation where prayers DON'T work.

What would be evidence of prayers working (evidence not proof) would be if children of parents who were
religious and prayed over them were statistically significantly more likely to survive than children who were
not prayed over. (particularly if the effect was religion specific).

However despite lots of people looking there is absolutely no evidence of such an effect.
Which is pretty strong evidence that no such effect exists.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I hope he recovers and my thoughts and prayers go out for him, and you.
Kelly

Why the hell pray for me???

I'm fine.

Even if prayers did work it would be a total waste of time.

If you're going to waste your time praying instead of doing something more productive
then at least spend it thinking about people who actually need help, rather than those
that don't.

I don't.

Not a mystery to me. As you say I can not prove it to you or anyone else either. That matters not. You do not believe so you call it a mystery. I believe and I know what happened. I left out the details of his accident and how it was a miracle he survived because there is alot more to my testimony of his healing, but it's not worth sharing because you would explain it away as 'a mystery'. I understand what you are saying, and I know that not everyone receives healing. Gods ways are mysterios and we will never know them until he returns and 'all' things are revealed. I was simply disagreeing with your PROCLOMATION that prayer does not work. You seem to think you are right, and everyone else is wrong. I will end where I started...

I disagree

Thank you for saying that you were glad he is alright. .

Originally posted by googlefudge
Why the hell pray for me???

I'm fine.

Even if prayers did work it would be a total waste of time.

If you're going to waste your time praying instead of doing something more productive
then at least spend it thinking about people who actually need help, rather than those
that don't.

I don't.

I hope he recovers yes, your responce prompted me to pray for you.
Kelly

Originally posted by boonon
Not a mystery to me. As you say I can not prove it to you or anyone else either. That matters not. You do not believe so you call it a mystery. I believe and I know what happened. I left out the details of his accident and how it was a miracle he survived because there is alot more to my testimony of his healing, but it's not worth sharing because you would e ...[text shortened]... here I started...

I disagree

Thank you for saying that you were glad he is alright. .

how do you know god wasnt going to save your son anyway regardless of your prayer?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I hope he recovers yes, your responce prompted me to pray for you.
Kelly

Again why? You didn't answer this question.

Also arrogant much, I don't want you to pray for me.

And what the hell are you praying for?
As in what is it you want god to do to me?

And why the hell don't you ask whether I want whatever it is you are praying for?

Again, arrogant much.

Originally posted by boonon
Not a mystery to me. As you say I can not prove it to you or anyone else either. That matters not. You do not believe so you call it a mystery. I believe and I know what happened. I left out the details of his accident and how it was a miracle he survived because there is alot more to my testimony of his healing, but it's not worth sharing because you would e ...[text shortened]... here I started...

I disagree

Thank you for saying that you were glad he is alright. .

Actually it does matter.

You can't (by definition) know something if you can't demonstrate that you know it to other people.
(btw by demonstrate I mean rationally demonstrate, the fact that nobody can convince RJHinds that
evolution is a fact doesn't mean that evolution is wrong, just that RJHinds is beyond all reason and
sticks his fingers in his ears and sings tiptoe through the tulips every time someone tries.)

So the fact that you admit that you can't prove it to me/anyone else means that you can't by definition
know it.


Believing something really really hard does not equate to knowing it.

To know something you have to be able to prove that you know it.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
how do you know god wasnt going to save your son anyway regardless of your prayer?

Exactly, this falls under the "correlation does not necessarily equal causation" category.

Even if you do accept that god exists, there is no evidence that prayers to that god
actually work. (as in alter what that god does.)
If god has a plan that it's sticking to regardless of what anyone asks of it then prayers
don't work, even in the case where that god actually exists.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
how do you know god wasnt going to save your son anyway regardless of your prayer?

I can't answer that because I will never know until I am in heaven and all of my questions are all answered. I wonder why you ask though seeing that you think that God is a 'fairy tale'.

When I disagree with someone's train of thought I tend to let them be to their own devices. I do not force my thoughts or beliefs on them or ridicule them. I find it interesting how all of the non believers in this forum need to belittle and flat out ridicule mine and others belief in God. If you and others truly didnt believe I would think you would let us be with our thoughts. The fact that most truly vilify and mock our beliefs leads me to think there is more going on. Dare I say a wanting to believe but as so many put it ' they need scientific facts or proof'.

God is not something that can be cast under a microscope and examined. He is the author of the science that most here cling to. I find science fascinating and the complexity of it reaffirms my faith all the more.

So I guess in closing I really have no answer for you or for me on your question. I was not the only one praying for my son, just the first. Literally hundreds of Gods faithful servants were praying for him before we made it to the hospital. Our prayers were a petion to God for healing. Would He have healed him without our prayers? Sorry but I can't answer that. My son is very strong in his faith so that is possible. The Bible says that where two or more are gathered in his name , Christ is there among us.

I know God exists. You and others could not sway me from that truth no more than I myself could make you believe.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Exactly, this falls under the "correlation does not necessarily equal causation" category.

Even if you do accept that god exists, there is no evidence that prayers to that god
actually work. (as in alter what that god does.)
If god has a plan that it's sticking to regardless of what anyone asks of it then prayers
don't work, even in the case where that god actually exists.

You seem to very intelligent, almost to a fault. I am in the middle of something right now and the verse escapes me or I would look it up. To paraphrase and I'm probably off a little bit but it says something to the affect of ...." Seeing themselves wise they are actually blinded to the truth". Or something to that affect. I'm not trying to insult you but sometimes the smartest people can't see what's right in front of them.

That is why it is called faith. The evidence of things unseen.

Originally posted by boonon
I can't answer that because I will never know until I am in heaven and all of my questions are all answered. I wonder why you ask though seeing that you think that God is a 'fairy tale'.

When I disagree with someone's train of thought I tend to let them be to their own devices. I do not force my thoughts or beliefs on them or ridicule them. I find it int nd others could not sway me from that truth no more than I myself could make you believe.

"I can't answer that because I will never know until I am in heaven and all of my questions are all answered. I wonder why you ask though seeing that you think that God is a 'fairy tale'."

exactly thus proving the point that you do not know if prayers are answered by god.
i asked the question to prove a point.

When I disagree with someone's train of thought I tend to let them be to their own devices

i hardly interrupted your train of thought did i? you posted a comment on a forum saying you believed one thing, i posted back disproving what you said. surly you have read threads on the forum and were aware that your views would be challenged.

I find it interesting how all of the non believers in this forum need to belittle and flat out ridicule mine and others belief in God. If you and others truly didnt believe I would think you would let us be with our thoughts. The fact that most truly vilify and mock our beliefs leads me to think there is more going on. Dare I say a wanting to believe but as so many put it ' they need scientific facts or proof'.

i think you will find the ridicule and the attempting to change peoples views on here works both ways. there are as many theist posters doing the same as atheist posters, so stop acting like a victim.
if you are referring to this thread i would hardly say disproving your claims about prayer is ridiculing you.

if you want to be left with your thoughts then keep them in your head, or message people privately. this is a forum for discussion and debate.
you should also keep in mind that many of the atheists on here find the contents of the bible to be deeply offensive. its not like we think christianity is a bit of harmless fun. we have issues that we would like to be heard on. praying is one of those topics. so if you dont want to get into it, then its best not to post.
you maybe correct, maybe some of the atheists might want to believe. who knows. i think it would be a terrible if the christian god is real as hes a monster.

you say god cannot be put under a microscope. thats another wrong thing to say. maybe god can, maybe he cant. i dont know and you dont know. what you actually mean is - we currently cannot put god under a microscope especially as he doesnt seem to exist.


your not the only person to be in the situation you were in. i bet most people on here have lost or nearly lost people. i can give you two personal accounts of doctors telling parents to prepare for the worst and the person surviving. prayers were given in one situation and not in the other. neither of the sick people were christians, go figure.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]"I can't answer that because I will never know until I am in heaven and all of my questions are all answered. I wonder why you ask though seeing that you think that God is a 'fairy tale'."

exactly thus proving the point that you do not know if prayers are answered by god.
i asked the question to prove a point.

When I disagree with some ...[text shortened]... e situation and not in the other. neither of the sick people were christians, go figure.

Wrong on all accounts. I also lost a close personal friend recently and he was prayed for. However he was not healed. Why? I don't have the answer. You proved nothing I said as false. You can not prove there is no God.

I don't consider myself a victim at all. I find many things non believers do offensive but you don't see me on here bashing their beliefs , thoughts or lifestyles.

So you baited me to prove a point huh? Pretty amusing because no point was proven. Only your judgmental thoughts and hatred for Christians came across, nothing more. You can spout all the hatred you want is has no effect on me or my faith.

The day my son was discharged I spoke at length with the hospital chaplain. I asked him how he could stay so positive while doing his work. Because yes 'I did see others who had the exact opposite outcome of my son'. My sons floor alone had a few young children who were not going to leave with their family. For you to tell me that I didn't realize that is the case for some is short sighted on your part. I never said such a thing. The chaplain told me something very honest and very sobering. We ALL are going to die, we just don't know when.

So again, I fully believe prayer works. It doesn't matter to me if you agree. As you said this a public forum and it is my right to express my opinion. Just because you have an opposite opinion doesn't mean that mine is wrong. Disagree all you want it is your right, but don't tell I'm wrong and then say you proved it. You proved nothing.

Originally posted by boonon
Wrong on all accounts. I also lost a close personal friend recently and he was prayed for. However he was not healed. Why? I don't have the answer. You proved nothing I said as false. You can not prove there is no God.

I don't consider myself a victim at all. I find many things non believers do offensive but you don't see me on here bashing their beliefs ...[text shortened]... your right, but don't tell I'm wrong and then say you proved it. You proved nothing.

Wrong on all accounts. I also lost a close personal friend recently and he was prayed for. However he was not healed. Why? I don't have the answer. You proved nothing I said as false. You can not prove there is no God.

you need to calm down a bit and properly read what people have written. look back. i havent tried to prove there is no god. all ive tried to point out that we are unable to tell if prayer works. im not sure what the relevance of your friend is and im sorry you lost that person, we all loose people and its hard.

I don't consider myself a victim at all. I find many things non believers do offensive but you don't see me on here bashing their beliefs , thoughts or lifestyles.

where have you been 'bashed' to you feel somebody you tries to disprove your views as 'bashing' you. dont you think its healthy to discuss and argue over our thoughts and beliefs? where do you feel you have been 'bashed'?

So you baited me to prove a point huh? Pretty amusing because no point was proven. Only your judgmental thoughts and hatred for Christians came across, nothing more. You can spout all the hatred you want is has no effect on me or my faith.

baited?? youre coming off as a bit of a drama queen. where did i bait you? i tried to prove a point, is there something wrong with that. if you were talking about politics and i argued you were wrong would you be equally upset or would you engage in debate and defend your views or prove mine were wrong?
i dont hate christians, there are several christians i love. discussing, or even arguing over beliefs doesnt mean you hate somebody.

can you give me an example of where ive spouted hatred to you?


i almost died as a baby, they had me christened in hospital 'just in case'. my in-laws were told to prepare for the worst by a doctor when it looked like their son was going to die from cancer. he survived. my friend was hit by a car going over 100mph and was in a coma for 2 months, he survived. my aunties first child was born with screwed up bladder, not a major thing she was told, he died. my friend at college was run over by a drunk driver, he died. my work colleague got cancer, she died. my other work colleagues wife got cancer, she died. my aunties god daughter aged 5 ran into the road and was hit, she died. i could go on.....can you give me one good reason why god would save some and not others?


So again, I fully believe prayer works

what?? youve just said you dont know if your prayer saved your son or if god was going to save him anyway. so how do you know prayer works???