What are the rules...

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Please explain.

They have heard of the creation account of Genesis and the worldwide flood of Noah's day and the wrath of God against sinners. However, they willingly make themselves ignorant fools by believing in evolution rather in the word of God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

(Romans 1:18-23 NKJV)

Originally posted by Great King Rat

There have been and continue to be lots of wars based on religious differences. If indeed life and peace is the most important rule then god should let himself be known (without room for doubt) and set things straight.

But perhaps god has different idea of "the most important rule".

Great point Grreat King Rat. I kind of hate to have to debunk it a little.

You misunderstand (and I did not clarify) what I meant by life and peace. The Greek word for life there is not psyche meaning "soul" or "self" but ZOE meaning the divine life. Life and peace firstly means God's life dwelling in and mingled with man's life.

That is the rule of allowing God to blend with us - divine life. (This is a brief word ).

Peace is peace is peace. But here "life and peace" is something very subjective because it represents God ruling from within rather than imposing from outside. From within the one joined to God, God is dispensing His life, His nature, and His peace.

The sociology profession sometimes has a saying "The flow of money determines all behavior." You can imagine perhaps what they mean. How and where the money is moving determines how people will act and what they will do.

Well in a more pertinent human sense the flow of God determines what one ought to do. The richness of fellowship with God should be followed. The deepness of communion with God should be persued. The sense of divine life and divine peace deep within is the most important pathway of the one seeking reality.

You see rather than God clamp down from above outwardly forcing man by coercion to "act right" He sent His Son to manifest the reigning of God from within.

And in this age He secures a remnant of the human race, the church, called out to manifest this divine ruling from within the kernel of man's being - a ruling by "life and peace".

In time He will work out this matter on a global scale. This is just a very brief word. I am not giving full development of this direction of history.

But the picture we are given of the eternity on the earth is one where the flow of the Spirit of God is coming out of the seat of His authority as life.

Grasp this picture if you can of a profound reality expressed in symbol form -

"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street.

And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Revelation 22:1,2)

This is symbolism used to express something very profound about God flowing Himself into man's being.

1.) The flow of the river of water of divine life is coming out of the place of God's authrity - the throne. This means that God reigns by watering, by supplying, by quenching thirst, by dispensing His life and nature into man. He reigns by dispensing Himself into man.

2.) The throne is one throne. It is not the plural thrones but the singular "throne of God and of the Lamb." This means that the KING of the universe is God in a Man Who is the Redeemer and Savior. This means God is in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is destined to be the King over the planet and over the whole universe.

3.) His reigning and ruling is by dispensing and flowing and pouring into humanity the eternal life of God. He reigns by reigning WITHIN.

4.) The street is one. There are no plural streets in the eternal city. There is only one street. It is a golden street.

This symbolizes that there is only one way to walk, ie. only one way to live. The one way to live is by the divine nature of God. Put plainly it means it is to live as Jesus Christ lives. Put plainly it is that everyone IS as Jesus Christ IS.

This is why the STREET (one street) is pure gold. The gold represents the divine nature of the Father. Man walks by the divine nature and his walk is like the life of Jesus Christ.

Do you understand me so far ?

5.) In the deep symbolism the river of the water of life is flowing in the middle of the one street. This means the flowing of God into man is going the same way as the way the street goes. The river flows the way the street goes. And the street goes the way the river flows.

The symbolism is that man's one way to live is exactly along the channel of God flowing Himself into man. Man lives in God. God lives in man.

What is depicted here in symbols can elsewhere be shown in plainer words. So I said that the rule for reality is living by "life and peace" .

There are religious wars. True. There will be wars secular and religious for a time. Eventually there will be a last war. And I don't mean WWI.

After the last war, in eternity when God has fully accomplished His purpose there is God and man united, mingled, blended. And this New Jerusalem is a symbol showing us this profound matter.

In short God is now reproducing Jesus Christ in some people. And though they are a minority they will inherit the planet and co-reign with the King of kings, Jesus Christ. The nations will be healed and the new heaven and new earth will be one in which righteousness lives forever.

So confirms the Apostle Peter -

"Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness,

Expecting and hastening the coming day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away.

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:11-13)

Originally posted by yoctobyte
... for determining morality?

In another thread I asked the question "What are the rules for determining morality?" For atheists, without using the bible or any religion, what guides and forms your morality?

When, as a believer, you figure out why in some cases you won't do as the bible
commands (stone your own daughter, keep slaves and what not), you'll know where
atheists get their morals from.

Originally posted by C Hess
When, as a believer, you figure out why in some cases you won't do as the bible
commands (stone your own daughter, keep slaves and what not), you'll know where
atheists get their morals from.

When, as a believer, you figure out why in some cases you won't do as the bible commands (stone your own daughter, keep slaves and what not), you'll know where atheists get their morals from.

From the New Testament - (Matthew to Revelation) could you point out to me the instruction for a Christian to stone anyone ?

From the New Testament can you show me a command to keep a slave?
That should be accompanied with a command to divorce a spouse ?

The reason I say this is because it is one thing for God to inform us:

"If you are in this situation, you should act this way" and
"Go get into this situation."

So I need from you the NT injunction and/or command to either go kidnap and enslave a person or go positively divorce a spouse.

Originally posted by RJHinds
They have heard of the creation account of Genesis and the worldwide flood of Noah's day and the wrath of God against sinners. However, they willingly make themselves ignorant fools by believing in evolution rather in the word of God.

[b]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the trut ...[text shortened]... ruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

(Romans 1:18-23 NKJV)[/b]

I'm sorry, but to most intelligent people, the "my book says so"-argument is unconvincing, to say the least.

Originally posted by sonship

There have been and continue to be lots of wars based on religious differences. If indeed life and peace is the most important rule then god should let himself be known (without room for doubt) and set things straight.

But perhaps god has different idea of "the most important rule".

Great point Grreat King Rat. I kind of hate to have ...[text shortened]... ting new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:11-13) [/quote][/b]

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

(Matthew 7:6 NASB)

Originally posted by C Hess
When, as a believer, you figure out why in some cases you won't do as the bible
commands (stone your own daughter, keep slaves and what not), you'll know where
atheists get their morals from.

When, as a believer, you figure out why in some cases you won't do as the bible commands (stone your own daughter, keep slaves and what not), you'll know where atheists get their morals from.

Paul was a considerable architect of the Christian faith. He quotes the Old Testament that kidnapping is a crime. See First Timothy 1:9,10. Paul says that it is opposed to "healthy teaching" .

So where is the Christian's instruction to practice slavery as it was practiced as in, say, American history ?

Originally posted by C Hess
When, as a believer, you figure out why in some cases you won't do as the bible
commands (stone your own daughter, keep slaves and what not), you'll know where
atheists get their morals from.

Wow, thank you for that!

I don't believe the bible commands us as 'believers' to "stone our own daughter, keep slaves and what not". That being said, why not just answer the post vs. linking your answer to something that depends on what another may or may not believe... seems to me to be a diversion?

What guides and forms your morality? The question puts the onus of an answer on you not on anothers beliefs. Can you share?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Our morality is based on our biological instinct to reproduce. Being the species we are, we require that our offspring gets taken care of extremely well (notice the utter helplessness of human offspring compared to other animals) which is why we need functioning societies. And we are smart enough to realise that if we want other people to not hurt us ...[text shortened]... eat us.

Of course, sometimes our animal instincts take over and morality goes out the window.

Human being used to sacrifice their children to the gods in the hopes of a better harvest, fertility etc.

Now people abort children to keep a certain lifestyle. It seems morality is shaped by our material wants and needs to a great degree.

Originally posted by whodey
Human being used to sacrifice their children to the gods in the hopes of a better harvest, fertility etc.

Now people abort children to keep a certain lifestyle. It seems morality is shaped by our material wants and needs to a great degree.

And what shapes our material wants and needs?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
And what shapes our material wants and needs?

I guess it depends on who you are. For example, I heard a story of a woman who lived in down town New York. She thought it would be swell to have a kid, but come to find out she was having twins instead. So she had a choice to make. She could have changed her lifestyle and move to Jersey to meet the economic hadships of having two kids instead of one, or she could selectively abort one of the kids, which she ended up doing.

When it comes to money, people become monsters. The love of money certainly is the root of all evil.

What is the relevance of this little anecdote?

Originally posted by sonship
From the New Testament can you show me a command to keep a slave?
That should be accompanied with a command to divorce a spouse ?

The reason I say this is because it is one thing for God to inform us:

"If you are in this situation, you should act this way" and
"Go get into this situation."

So I need from you the NT injunction[ nd/or command to either go kidnap and enslave a person or go positively divorce a spouse.

Right, you may use the NT-card on stoning women, but you don't really escape the slave
issue with that argument. Why would anyone who thinks slavery is wrong, give advice to
slaves, that ensures their prolonged slavery?

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you
would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God
and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for
being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another
believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey
them. (Timothy 6:1-2)

Originally posted by yoctobyte
What guides and forms your morality? The question puts the onus of an answer on you not on anothers beliefs. Can you share?

I get my morals from two (sometimes conflicting) sources: the social contract and what I
can rationally understand to be good and bad. Same as everyone else, whether or not they
can see it themselves.

It's not really a big problem for non-believers.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
What is the relevance of this little anecdote?

To you apparently nothing.