1. Hmmm . . .
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    15 Mar '05 14:233 edits
    What did Jesus mean…

    First try....

    Vistesd: I suppose “where I’m going with this” is simply that none of us knows the mind of God; all we know—all we can know—is our understanding of whatever God may choose to reveal for our understanding.

    Darfius: I reject that idea. The Bible is crystal clear when my Lord Jesus says: 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. –John

    Vistesd: And I might respond that “by me” (Greek: di’, through, by, by means of) means by the action of Christ, not any action on your part.

    Darfius: Fair enough, so your claim is that He sacrificed Himself on the cross so that everyone could get into Heaven? Even those who scoff at Him and murder rampantly?

    Vistesd: I would also offer John 12:32: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to [with or in company with] myself.” {Greek, pros: to, with, in company with, toward, near, beside, etc.}

    I then asked how this statement, that sounds fairly universal might be interpreted in light of other verses, etc. As I insisted that I was only opening up the questions for understanding, these are the kinds of responses I got:

    Darfius:

    You want to take one sentence out of context of the entire Bible? Wow. That's Russian roulette with only one empty chamber.

    You're not trying to read and understand. Let's not be coy. You're trying to read and mold it into something that suits you and your lifestyle, rather than the lifestyle God wants for you.

    *sigh* I love how you false prophets act wounded when I point out your methods. You plant tiny seeds of doubt in the mind of baby Christians and you totally disillusion those who are seeking the truth. "Maybe we're all going to heaven." you whisper in their ear. "Jesus just ministered for the fun of it, He didn't really care if you listened." Satan would be proud of you.

    *******************************************************

    The discourse degenerated from there. I have taken the above posts “out of context” of the Hermeneutics and Faith thread, should anyone want to read the whole thing, and see the complete context.

    Try again...

    This morning it struck me that no one ever really addressed my questions regarding how these passages might be read—whether, for example, they “outweigh” passages that make exceptions, whether they are more limited than it seems when they stand alone because of the exceptions stated in other passages, how different passages might be balanced against each other, how context affects our understanding, etc.

    So I offer this thread in the interest of seeing what others might offer some thoughts: What do you think Jesus meant in the above passages, and why do you think that?

    I will be gone for the day, and look forward to reading some of your responses this evening.
  2. Joined
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    15 Mar '05 21:36
    Originally posted by vistesd
    What did Jesus mean…

    [b]First try....


    Vistesd: I suppose “where I’m going with this” is simply that none of us knows the mind of God; all we know—all we can know—is our understanding of whatever God may choose to reveal for our understanding.

    Darfius: I reject that idea. The Bible is crystal clear when my Lord Jesus says: 14:6 Jesus saith unto ...[text shortened]...

    I will be gone for the day, and look forward to reading some of your responses this evening.[/b]
    All men that have heard of CHRIST are drawn to him. To make a choice as to whether they will believe in him or not. Are not even unbelievers drawn to HIM, either to question or ridiclue HIM.
  3. Donationrwingett
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    16 Mar '05 02:08
    Originally posted by blindfaith101
    All men that have heard of CHRIST are drawn to him. To make a choice as to whether they will believe in him or not. Are not even unbelievers drawn to HIM, either to question or ridiclue HIM.
    Rubbish. I never bring him up except when I'm arguing with christian zealots.
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    16 Mar '05 08:59
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Rubbish. I never bring him up except when I'm arguing with christian zealots.
    if you are not drawn to CHRIST, why argue or discuss HIM.
  5. Standard memberMaustrauser
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    16 Mar '05 10:12
    Originally posted by blindfaith101
    if you are not drawn to CHRIST, why argue or discuss HIM.
    Because Fundamentalist Christians (along with fundamentalist Moslems / Jews / Hindus and other benighted people) are the biggest threat to world peace than anything else.
  6. England
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    16 Mar '05 10:20
    Originally posted by Maustrauser
    Because Fundamentalist Christians (along with fundamentalist Moslems / Jews / Hindus and other benighted people) are the biggest threat to world peace than anything else.
    bigots yes i agree but not christians, remember the devil knows the bible so he can use it to decive by faulty use.
  7. Standard memberRagnorak
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    16 Mar '05 10:26
    Originally posted by stoker
    bigots yes i agree but not christians, remember the devil knows the bible so he can use it to decive by faulty use.
    To be a fundamentalist any-religion, you have to be a bigot as well. That goes without saying and should be taken as fact. The fundamentalist christians on here seem to view their bigotry as a plus point in the eyes of jesus.

    From dictionary.com...
    big·ot
    One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

    D
  8. England
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    16 Mar '05 10:33
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    To be a fundamentalist any-religion, you have to be a bigot as well. That goes without saying and should be taken as fact. The fundamentalist christians on here seem to view their bigotry as a plus point in the eyes of jesus.

    From dictionary.com...
    big·ot
    One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

    D
    oh your so wrong??? strong belief to fundamentalists, is right but if you seek to kill or hide in the shadows you are losing sight of the belief you hold dear. i do not say its easy to understand but each indervidual will get trials to determine there course.
  9. Standard memberRagnorak
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    16 Mar '05 11:24
    Originally posted by stoker
    oh your so wrong??? strong belief to fundamentalists, is right but if you seek to kill or hide in the shadows you are losing sight of the belief you hold dear. i do not say its easy to understand but each indervidual will get trials to determine there course.
    Sorry, I don't understand your post.

    D
  10. Standard memberMaustrauser
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    16 Mar '05 11:43
    Originally posted by stoker
    bigots yes i agree but not christians, remember the devil knows the bible so he can use it to decive by faulty use.
    Oh come off it! The Fundamentalist Christians are just as bad as the others and by definition they are all bigots.

    We have Franklin Graham "Of Praise the Lord and pass the money fame" touring Australia. He has so helpfully called the Islamic Religion evil. Is it any wonder Fundie Moslems hate Fundie Christians? They clearly want to bring the Rapture down on our heads.
  11. Standard memberMayharm
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    16 Mar '05 12:39
    Originally posted by stoker
    bigots yes i agree but not christians, remember the devil knows the bible so he can use it to decive by faulty use.
    Nope, the devil uses the bible perfectly...

    It's his manipulation of a persons perceptions that make him the devil.

    Which is how I always understood that story of how jesus met him in the desert, but hey...I'm not a xtian.

    MÅ¥HÅRM
  12. Standard memberDarfius
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    16 Mar '05 16:46
    Originally posted by Maustrauser
    Oh come off it! The Fundamentalist Christians are just as bad as the others and by definition they are all bigots.

    We have Franklin Graham "Of Praise the Lord and pass the money fame" touring Australia. He has so helpfully called the Islamic Religion evil. Is it any wonder Fundie Moslems hate Fundie Christians? They clearly want to bring the Rapture down on our heads.
    Fundie (and most other) Muslims hate Christians and Jews because it says so right in the Koran. I thought we covered that? Do you need another beheading to drive the point home?
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    16 Mar '05 17:11
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Fundie (and most other) Muslims hate Christians and Jews because it says so right in the Koran. I thought we covered that? Do you need another beheading to drive the point home?
    And I thought we already covered in the discussion of the Midianite Massacre and other atrocities that you have no qualms killing even children or entire groups of people if you believe your God directs it. You are no better than Osama Bin Laden, Darfius.
  14. Standard memberRagnorak
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    16 Mar '05 17:11
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Fundie (and most other) Muslims hate Christians and Jews because it says so right in the Koran. I thought we covered that? Do you need another beheading to drive the point home?
    Where, in his post, did he deny that any fundamentalist is essentially a hater? Why do you think that a score of beheadings means that fundamentalist (and most other) Muslims are worse than fundamentalist christians who are backing an illegal war which has killed upto 200,000 (mostly innocents)?

    D
  15. Hmmm . . .
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    16 Mar '05 17:25
    Originally posted by Mayharm
    Nope, the devil uses the bible perfectly...

    It's his manipulation of a persons perceptions that make him the devil.

    Which is how I always understood that story of how jesus met him in the desert, but hey...I'm not a xtian.

    MÅ¥HÅRM
    Nope, the devil uses the bible perfectly...


    That’s interesting. Do you mean to say that if/when the devil exegetes/interprets the Bible, he is going to be sure that he does it correctly to prevent being challenged on that score?

    Could you flesh that idea out a little more?
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