What did Jesus mean....?
15 Mar '05 14:233 editsWhat did Jesus mean…
First try....
Vistesd: I suppose “where I’m going with this” is simply that none of us knows the mind of God; all we know—all we can know—is our understanding of whatever God may choose to reveal for our understanding.
Darfius: I reject that idea. The Bible is crystal clear when my Lord Jesus says: 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. –John
Vistesd: And I might respond that “by me” (Greek: di’, through, by, by means of) means by the action of Christ, not any action on your part.
Darfius: Fair enough, so your claim is that He sacrificed Himself on the cross so that everyone could get into Heaven? Even those who scoff at Him and murder rampantly?
Vistesd: I would also offer John 12:32: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to [with or in company with] myself.” {Greek, pros: to, with, in company with, toward, near, beside, etc.}
I then asked how this statement, that sounds fairly universal might be interpreted in light of other verses, etc. As I insisted that I was only opening up the questions for understanding, these are the kinds of responses I got:
Darfius:
You want to take one sentence out of context of the entire Bible? Wow. That's Russian roulette with only one empty chamber.
You're not trying to read and understand. Let's not be coy. You're trying to read and mold it into something that suits you and your lifestyle, rather than the lifestyle God wants for you.
*sigh* I love how you false prophets act wounded when I point out your methods. You plant tiny seeds of doubt in the mind of baby Christians and you totally disillusion those who are seeking the truth. "Maybe we're all going to heaven." you whisper in their ear. "Jesus just ministered for the fun of it, He didn't really care if you listened." Satan would be proud of you.
*******************************************************
The discourse degenerated from there. I have taken the above posts “out of context” of the Hermeneutics and Faith thread, should anyone want to read the whole thing, and see the complete context.
Try again...
This morning it struck me that no one ever really addressed my questions regarding how these passages might be read—whether, for example, they “outweigh” passages that make exceptions, whether they are more limited than it seems when they stand alone because of the exceptions stated in other passages, how different passages might be balanced against each other, how context affects our understanding, etc.
So I offer this thread in the interest of seeing what others might offer some thoughts: What do you think Jesus meant in the above passages, and why do you think that?
I will be gone for the day, and look forward to reading some of your responses this evening.
First try....
Vistesd: I suppose “where I’m going with this” is simply that none of us knows the mind of God; all we know—all we can know—is our understanding of whatever God may choose to reveal for our understanding.
Darfius: I reject that idea. The Bible is crystal clear when my Lord Jesus says: 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. –John
Vistesd: And I might respond that “by me” (Greek: di’, through, by, by means of) means by the action of Christ, not any action on your part.
Darfius: Fair enough, so your claim is that He sacrificed Himself on the cross so that everyone could get into Heaven? Even those who scoff at Him and murder rampantly?
Vistesd: I would also offer John 12:32: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to [with or in company with] myself.” {Greek, pros: to, with, in company with, toward, near, beside, etc.}
I then asked how this statement, that sounds fairly universal might be interpreted in light of other verses, etc. As I insisted that I was only opening up the questions for understanding, these are the kinds of responses I got:
Darfius:
You want to take one sentence out of context of the entire Bible? Wow. That's Russian roulette with only one empty chamber.
You're not trying to read and understand. Let's not be coy. You're trying to read and mold it into something that suits you and your lifestyle, rather than the lifestyle God wants for you.
*sigh* I love how you false prophets act wounded when I point out your methods. You plant tiny seeds of doubt in the mind of baby Christians and you totally disillusion those who are seeking the truth. "Maybe we're all going to heaven." you whisper in their ear. "Jesus just ministered for the fun of it, He didn't really care if you listened." Satan would be proud of you.
*******************************************************
The discourse degenerated from there. I have taken the above posts “out of context” of the Hermeneutics and Faith thread, should anyone want to read the whole thing, and see the complete context.
Try again...
This morning it struck me that no one ever really addressed my questions regarding how these passages might be read—whether, for example, they “outweigh” passages that make exceptions, whether they are more limited than it seems when they stand alone because of the exceptions stated in other passages, how different passages might be balanced against each other, how context affects our understanding, etc.
So I offer this thread in the interest of seeing what others might offer some thoughts: What do you think Jesus meant in the above passages, and why do you think that?
I will be gone for the day, and look forward to reading some of your responses this evening.
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