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Originally posted by @thinkofoneDo you believe it is possible to be born again without having faith?
In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, Jesus often says that one must believe Him or believe in Him. When He says this He is speaking of the words He is preaching in His gospel: Believe that He has the authority to speak the word of God, believe that His words are the word of God or to believe the words in and of themselves.
Jesus furth ...[text shortened]... ins", etc.
As nonsensical as it is, many Christians think that this is what Jesus is saying.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, Jesus often says that one must believe Him or believe in Him.
You don't like me to splice up your paragraph and reply in sections. But I must because you try to jury rig the discussion.
To the Christian "during His ministry" is today also.
I am compelled to delineate your paragraph because it contains a presupposition which is false, and by which you attempt to confine the work of Christ by your limits.
The gospel's essence is the AVAILABILITY of a living and present Jesus Christ.
No, ToO, not JUST His teaching is available. He HIMSELF is available. That is the good news.
I hear you saying "Focus jaywill. Focus." But I am.
He is WITH us who receive Him unto the consummation of the age.
" ... And behold. I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20)
As long as He is with us (Emmanual - God with us) we have access to His ministry.
Your expression - "Jesus, during His ministry" is you way of saying that you reject Him and His ministry.
Paul's final word in his letters is perhaps the most crucial advice he had for Timothy - The Lord Jesus Christ was WITH his spirit.
Paul's final NT word:
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Timothy 4:22)
Ie.
"Timothy, after all that I have said and done, never forget this if you forget anything - the Lord Jesus is with your innermost being. The Lord Jesus is with your spirit. Him being with you, in you, living in you will be your grace."
The ministry of Jesus Christ extends to this very present moment in 2018 AD.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
When He says this He is speaking of the words He is preaching in His gospel: Believe that He has the authority to speak the word of God, believe that His words are the word of God or to believe the words in and of themselves.
As then so now. He preaches that men should come to Him - Himself, that they may have divine life.
The learned scribes and Pharisees searched the Scriptures. All they had was the OT then. But they would not come to Jesus receiving Jesus that they might have life - God Himself.
" You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that testify concerning Me. Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:39,40)
A good prayer:
"Lord Jesus, I come to the Scriptures. But Lord I search them to come to You Yourself Lord. To my natural life ADD Yourself as the eternal and spiritual life. Add to my natural life Your uncreated and eternal Being as my available Lord and Savior. Thankyou Lord Jesus."
Many do much eloquent writing about Jesus here. But they cannot call Him "Lord Jesus". To be under His present day ministry you should let the Lord Jesus subdue you and be your Lord. He is available to minister to us today.
08 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneActually, I'd just be happy with your answers to my questions.
I'm inclined to spell everything out for you even though I've pretty much covered everything your asking in one way or another over the years.
If you really want to understand what I have in mind, then there are concepts I'd have to convey to you. It would be an iterative process. First I'll need to establish a foundation to build upon.
But I can' ...[text shortened]... ive responses. There seems to be a serious dearth of that on this forum.
It's your call.
.
I seem to remember that you were always one of the "skeptics" to put it mildly, who had a difficult time even believing in God, let alone that he sent his Son to earth as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins, universally and individually. I think I asked you these questions once before, but I can't remember if you gave me a response or not, if you did, it was buried under the detritus of this forum, and I didn't see it.
This is why I asked the questions I just asked you, because I find it bizarre that you could come into this forum touting this "works-based" theology without even recognizing our Lord Jesus as the Savior promised in Isaiah. The One who came that we might have Life, and to have it more abundantly, not only in some future Paradise, but in the Here and Now. It IS required of us to have Faith in Him, but not this flippant "mouth worship" you and your anti-Christian friend claim that all Christians have. We are required to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, this is the Faith we are told to have. All of your strident insistence on works makes me think that you do not have this Love of God, this Faith of our Savior who gives us Life itself. And the same goes for your twin, Rajk.
08 Feb 18
5 edits
Originally posted by @suzianneIf you'd been paying attention, rajk999 and I aren't really "twins". From what I gather, he believes in a "faith + good works" theology - he can correct me if I haven't captured it exactly right here.
Actually, I'd just be happy with your answers to my questions.
I seem to remember that you were always one of the "skeptics" to put it mildly, who had a difficult time even believing in God, let alone that he sent his Son to earth as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins, universally and individually. I think I asked you these questions once before, ...[text shortened]... God, this Faith of our Savior who gives us Life itself. And the same goes for your twin, Rajk.
I on the other hand am advocating for the salvation through righteousness theology preached by Jesus during His ministry. It is a logical continuation of the salvation through righteousness theology outlined by God as documented by the later OT prophets. It is about becoming righteous. Becoming a son of God as He was a son of God. Becoming one with God as He was one with God. Ultimately it's about transformation.
Our common ground is that neither of us believe in the "faith alone" theology. That and an emphasis on the teachings of Jesus.
08 Feb 18
As an atheist, I obviously don't believe God exists. However, the same logic that leads me to dismiss his existence also rationalizes that if I am wrong about that and an all-powerful and perfectly loving deity does exist then it is probable that such a deity doesn't give two hoots if we believe in Him or not, His primary concern being that we lead good lives.
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08 Feb 18
3 edits
Originally posted by @thinkofone
In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, ...
When did the ministry of Jesus end ?
Its a simple question to which you should be able to give a definitive answer.
"[D]uring His ministry" which ministry concluded when ?
08 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonshipThe expressions Jesus while He walked the Earth and the ministry of Jesus and their variants are pretty commonly used. Google it.In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, ...
When did the ministry of Jesus end ?
Its a simple question to which you should be able to give a definitive answer.
"[D]uring His ministry" which ministry concluded when ?
That you often point them like they are somehow "sneaky" or underhanded only serves to demonstrate how desperate you are to find something disparaging to say since you are unable to formulate cogent arguments to counter what I post.
You're really losing it jaywill.
08 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneThats about right.
If you'd been paying attention, rajk999 and I aren't really "twins". From what I gather, he believes in a "faith + good works" theology - he can correct me if I haven't captured it exactly right here.
I on the other hand am advocating for the salvation through righteousness theology preached by Jesus during His ministry. It is a logical continuation o ...[text shortened]... her of us believe in the "faith alone" theology. That and an emphasis on the teachings of Jesus.
Faith + Good works is ideal,
Faith alone is dead.
Works alone stands a chance.
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08 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneThe expressions Jesus while He walked the Earth and the ministry of Jesus and their variants are pretty commonly used. Google it.
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Thankyou. But my question to YOU ... is WHEN did the ministry of Jesus conclude?
You didn't send us to Google to read about your thoughts preceding this question. Please give your thoughts on this question.
That you often point them like they are somehow "sneaky" or underhanded only serves to demonstrate how desperate you are to find something disparaging to say since you are unable to formulate cogent arguments to counter what I post.
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But since you are NOT at all sneaky it should be no problem for you to give a simple answer, frank, definite and clear.
WHEN did the ministry of Jesus come to an end?
You're really losing it jaywill.
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Alas! Well before I lose it completely, PLEASE give me a straightfoward answer to this question.
When, did the ministry of Jesus come to an END ??
You've nothing to hide. So tell me when His ministry came to an end.
09 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999I'd noticed that you often detail it out that way. As a succinct way of expressing it, I wasn't that "faith + good works" captured it well enough for you.
Thats about right.
Faith + Good works is ideal,
Faith alone is dead.
Works alone stands a chance.
Similarly I'm okay with "salvation through righteous" though naturally there are details with that as well.
09 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonshipJesus ministry came to an end after his resurrection. The few days after the resurrection was spent preparing his disciples to go out into the world to continue the message. His entire ministry on earth lasted about 3.5 yrs.
[b] The expressions Jesus while He walked the Earth and the ministry of Jesus and their variants are pretty commonly used. Google it.
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Thankyou. But my question to YOU ... is WHEN did the ministry of Jesus conclude?
You didn't send us to Google to read about your thoughts preced ...[text shortened]... of Jesus come to an END ??
You've nothing to hide. So tell me when His ministry came to an end.[/b]
09 Feb 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @sonshipJaywill the point is that they are commonly used. It's not like I made them up or anything. I'd come across them several times and the expressions seemed apt.I use them as they are commonly used. Google it.
[b] The expressions Jesus while He walked the Earth and the ministry of Jesus and their variants are pretty commonly used. Google it.
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Thankyou. But my question to YOU ... is WHEN did the ministry of Jesus conclude?
You didn't send us to Google to read about your thoughts preced ...[text shortened]... of Jesus come to an END ??
You've nothing to hide. So tell me when His ministry came to an end.[/b]
From what i can tell, you see the ministry of Jesus as ongoing. This is not as it's commonly used insofar as I understand it.
Ditto for while Jesus walked the Earth.
Hopefully I haven't missed the boat completely in my understanding of how you think of those expressions.
Seems like in your myopic way of viewing things, you believe that I'm somehow "sneaky" or underhanded for using those expressions as they are commonly used since you view them differently. This doesn't seem reasonable,
That said, I get the impression that you have a pretty good idea of how they are commonly used.
09 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneWell, Im trying to classify it because the Bible refers to the elect of God separately from those who are judged. This elect escapes judgment. These are the righteous saints. Many Christians would like to think they are in this group but they are sadly mistaken.
I'd noticed that you often detail it out that way. As a succinct way of expressing it, I wasn't that "faith + good works" captured it well enough for you.
Similarly I'm okay with "salvation through righteous" though naturally there are details with that as well.
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09 Feb 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @thinkofoneDon't feel uncomfortable giving a straight forward answer.
" The ministry of Jesus concluded at this time - _________."
Thankyou for the little talk. But I just want to know when
you believe the ministry of Jesus ended.
"Past this point _______________ Jesus did not have His ministry any longer."
When ?