What does Jesus want from us?

Originally posted by chaney3
Did you not see the reference "for someone new in the forum"? You are good at highlighting and choosing sentences, but did you read it? Maybe somebody else would benefit.

But you aren't new to the forum, are you ~ so that makes your assertion that I am "now an atheist" untrue, and you know full well it's untrue... because of conversations we have had before. So the fibs and forum porkies continue, apparently.

And, besides, people who are new can feel free to ask questions of me as they please - and can surely do so without your efforts to decide what is and is not of "benefit" to whom. 😉

Originally posted by FMF
I think Jesus was a radical Jewish rabbi who, during his lifetime, preached to Jews about Judaism ~ as did numerous other rabbis at that time. Many of these preachers claimed to be the Messiah ~ supposedly curing the sick, casting out demons, gathering followers, challenging the priestly authorities.

They all represented a threat to the political order of th ...[text shortened]... osedly "wants from us" [and other supernatural aspects related to him] have any validity at all.

Thanks for your insight. I will add:

Jesus is/was:

1) Never existed
2) A human Jewish Rabbi
3) A human, but the Son of God
4) A human, but God Himself

I am not comfortable yet in any choices here. If I choose option #1 does that make me an atheist? If I choose option #2, am I a Jew? If I choose option #3, am I a Jehovah Witness, or if I choose option #4 am I a Christian (or Catholic) who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity?

It is obvious that people have made their choice, and maybe through faith they are okay with their choice? I have not personally been able to choose one of these options (and stick with it), for any length of time. Maybe my mind and thinking is getting in the way, or maybe my faith is weak? Not sure.

I have read the Bible, read other books, talked with pastors and priests, and read the comments here from atheists.....and each one believes that whatever choice they have made.....that they are somehow correct.

It has also been suggested to me to 'just pick one', and go with it. Well, I seem to be taking my time with my choice, and either the mind will continue to compute, or maybe an act of grace or faith will occur? Still not sure.

In any case, it has not been easy.

Originally posted by chaney3
Is believing that He really existed over 2,000 years ago enough? Or do we need to believe that He is the Son of God? Or do we need to believe that He is God?

Once we decide which 'belief' is necessary, what then do we do next? Is the belief alone satisfactory? Or do we need to follow up with Christ like works? And if along the way, we have doubts ab ...[text shortened]... ny conflicting opinions about this subject.

Mark 9:24 Lord I believe, but help my unbelief

Everything. Jesus wants your all.

Originally posted by chaney3
Thanks for your insight. I will add:

Jesus is/was:

1) Never existed
2) A human Jewish Rabbi
3) A human, but the Son of God
4) A human, but God Himself

I am not comfortable yet in any choices here. If I choose option #1 does that make me an atheist? If I choose option #2, am I a Jew? If I choose option #3, am I a Jehovah Witness, or if I c ...[text shortened]... aybe an act of grace or faith will occur? Still not sure.

In any case, it has not been easy.

In regards to #1, believing Jesus did not exist does not make you an atheist. Believing there is no God makes you an atheist. (Although believing there was no Jesus would disqualify you i'd think from being a Christian. - Though not necessarily from being a theist).

Originally posted by chaney3
Jesus is/was:
1) Never existed
2) A human Jewish Rabbi
3) A human, but the Son of God
4) A human, but God Himself

I am not comfortable yet in any choices here.
If I choose option #1 does that make me an atheist?
If I choose option #2, am I a Jew?
If I choose option #3, am I a Jehovah Witness,
If I choose option #4 am I a Christian (or Catholic) who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity?

None of these responses from you is correct.

If you choose #1, you are somebody who doesn't believe that Jesus existed and therefore you cannot be a Christian but you can be anything else, theist or atheist

Choosing #2 does not make you a Jew - where do you get these ideas from?! You could be an atheist who believed Jesus existed as a normal human being/teacher.

Choosing #3 makes you a theist, possibly Christian in theology, as Jesus was human, and he was also the son of god. Thinking he was not human makes you good at imagining things that are not in the Bible.

Choosing #4 makes you a theist, probably Christian in theology. Most Christian's believe in the deity of Christ.

Believing these things does not make you a "Christian" except possibly in theology. But it depends on your definition of "being a Christian" I suppose.

Originally posted by divegeester
None of these responses from you is correct.

If you choose #1, you are somebody who doesn't believe that Jesus existed and therefore you cannot be a Christian but you can be anything else, theist or atheist

Choosing #2 does not make you a Jew - where do you get these ideas from?! You could be an atheist who believed Jesus existed as a normal human ...[text shortened]... except possibly in theology. But it depends on your definition of "being a Christian" I suppose.

Sure, I could be wrong with these choices, no problem there. I am just pointing out that simply because some sort of choice even needs to be made creates doubt....for me.

Example: You believe in Jesus (either Godhead, or Trinity?), and that has steered you on your path to Christianity. Robbie believes in a different version of Jesus, which has led him to the JW. FMF believes that Jesus was a radical Jewish rabbi, with no divinity and other poster's on this forum have their own version of Jesus, which may or may not be the same as I just listed.

Which one of you is correct? Because not all of you can be at the same time. So, if I am conflicted about Christianity, it's because I have not been convinced that any of these versions of Jesus is the one I want to commit my life to. Understandably, I will most likely not find any 'proof' in my lifetime, so faith must be my issue then? Or lack thereof? I don't know.

Originally posted by divegeester
If you choose #1, you are somebody who doesn't believe that Jesus existed and therefore you cannot be a Christian but you can be anything else, theist or atheist.

He can't be your brand of Christian.
Atheist Christians exist just like atheist Jews exist.
I believe some senior people in the Anglican Church are atheist.

Originally posted by twhitehead
He can't be your brand of Christian.
Atheist Christians exist just like atheist Jews exist.
I believe some senior people in the Anglican Church are atheist.

I'm not understanding you; how can someone be a Christian and an atheist?

I can understand an atheist Jew, because being Jewish is a race (if that's the right word) as well as a creed of religion.

Originally posted by chaney3
Sure, I could be wrong with these choices, no problem there. I am just pointing out that simply because some sort of choice even needs to be made creates doubt....for me.

Example: You believe in Jesus (either Godhead, or Trinity?), and that has steered you on your path to Christianity. Robbie believes in a different version of Jesus, which has led him ...[text shortened]... ind any 'proof' in my lifetime, so faith must be my issue then? Or lack thereof? I don't know.

Asking the people who hold these views, "which one of you is correct?" is an exercise in futility because each will have their own firmly held opinion based on the evidence as they see it, and possibly spiritual experience also.

If it is "proof" you are seeking, you won't find it. The Christian experience requires faith. Faith in the written word, faith in an ideal, faith in a God that cannot be seen but only experienced, and that experience can always be challenged as being circumstantial, emotional, coincidental etc.

Faith is also combined in scripture with hope. A hope of glory. Faith is said to be the substantiation of things not seen. Actions, believing into something such that you change yourself, or you are changed, or both. This experience is what atheists (quite rudely, but in some ways inderstandably) call "make believe". If it is make believe, then it certain the most sophisticated and internally convincing make believe, in my experience.
If Carlsberg did make believe, it would probably be this kind of make believe. 😀

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not understanding you; how can someone be a Christian and an atheist?

I can understand an atheist Jew, because being Jewish is a race (if that's the right word) as well as a creed of religion.

'Jewish' is not a race. It it is a culture and a religion.

Anyone who says they are Christian has the right to the title. Some atheists are Christian by culture.
Some atheists might call themselves Christian because they believe they follow the teachings of Christ (or say they do, or wish they could, rather like other Christians do), whether they believe he actually existed or not.

One doesn't have to believe the Buddha existed in order to be Buddhist.

Some examples, in case you think I am just making it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

In the Netherlands, 42% of the members of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN) are nontheists.[6] Non-belief among clergymen is not always perceived as a problem.

According to research in 2007, only 27% of Catholics in the Netherlands considered themselves theist, while 55% were ietsist or agnostic deist, and 17% were agnostic or atheist. Many Dutch people still affiliate with the term "Catholic", and use it within certain traditions as a basis of their cultural identity, rather than as a religious identity. The vast majority of the Catholic population in the Netherlands is now largely irreligious in practice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism

Originally posted by twhitehead
'Jewish' is not a race. It it is a culture and a religion.

Anyone who says they are Christian has the right to the title. Some atheists are Christian by culture.
Some atheists might call themselves Christian because they believe they follow the teachings of Christ (or say they do, or wish they could, rather like other Christians do), whether they beli ...[text shortened]... ually existed or not.

One doesn't have to believe the Buddha existed in order to be Buddhist.

Interesting.

Originally posted by divegeester
Asking the people who hold these views, "which one of you is correct?" is an exercise in futility because each will have their own firmly held opinion based on the evidence as they see it, and possibly spiritual experience also.

If it is "proof" you are seeking, you won't find it. The Christian experience requires faith. Faith in the written word, f ...[text shortened]... experience.
If Carlsberg did make believe, it would probably be this kind of make believe. 😀

Good post Dive. Both yourself and FMF have contributed insightful and thoughtful opinions in this thread regarding Jesus. Thanks.

Boy that was painful. 😉

And now, according to twitehead, there seems to be another choice with Jesus that I had never heard of: Christian Atheist. Add it to the pile, I guess.

Originally posted by twhitehead
'Jewish' is not a race. It it is a culture and a religion.

Anyone who says they are Christian has the right to the title. Some atheists are Christian by culture.
Some atheists might call themselves Christian because they believe they follow the teachings of Christ (or say they do, or wish they could, rather like other Christians do), whether they beli ...[text shortened]... ually existed or not.

One doesn't have to believe the Buddha existed in order to be Buddhist.

So what you are suggesting is that even if a person does NOT believe that Jesus even existed, they still call themselves a Christian because they are following his teachings?

I would assume that most Christians who actually believe in Jesus (whether human or God) would disagree with that philosophy?

Originally posted by chaney3
So what you are suggesting is that even if a person does NOT believe that Jesus even existed, they still call themselves a Christian because they are following his teachings?

I would assume that most Christians who actually believe in Jesus (whether human or God) would disagree with that philosophy?

I dont disagree with the philosophy as it's entirely possible, although in my opinion it is probably an uncommon scenario.

If someone did not believe Jesus existed then they are by default concluding that someone else wrote his teachings. Calling yourself a Christian in that circumstance would be very odd as you would not be being honest with yourself or those around you.