What I envy about theists

Originally posted by josephw
Originally posted by josephw
[b]"...without emphasizing blood, sin, hell, magic, etc."

If that's what you want then just turn on the TV or go to the movies, or better yet join the service and deploy to the Middle East.

The reality of blood, sin, hell and horrors are right out there in the street everyday. Unless you live in an ivory palace. ...[text shortened]... ty? Or to some idea that makes it palatable to your own sensibilities?

Welcome back bbarr. 🙂[/b]

The sermons in the Lutheran church we attend don't really focus on convincing anybody of the putative reality of God and Christ. Some focus on social justice issues, some on virtues of character, some on unpacking Biblical stories to get at their importance for us and our lives. It's a mixed bag. But the people are kind and neighborly and it's a way my wife can feel more connected to her family and culture.

As for me, I'm too far gone to be convinced. I'm an atheist down to my bones. But I'm also a moral philosopher and as such am interested in the various claims given in sermons and the arguments presented in their support. I'm interested in anything interesting anybody has to say about morality, virtue, the good life, human nature, etc. I also like the coffee and pastries. Old Lutheran ladies can cook!

Hope you're doing well!

Originally posted by bbarr
The sermons in the Lutheran church we attend don't really focus on convincing anybody of the putative reality of God and Christ. Some focus on social justice issues, some on virtues of character, some on unpacking Biblical stories to get at their importance for us and our lives. It's a mixed bag. But the people are kind and neighborly and it's a way my wife can feel more connected to her family and culture.

This strikes a familiar chord for me back in the early 1990s.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Oh .. I bash crooked Christians. The fact that you always comment and think that is something bad indicates that I have stepped on your toes.

And your sin is that you assume all Christians are crooked.

If you actually followed Christ instead of giving Him lip service, you would see this.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually I gave you the short version. The long version of what you believe goes like this:

- I believe in Christ
- Christ died for my sins
- Christ and only Christ was righteous
- We are all hopeless sinners
- Christ has given me his Spirit
- I cannot sin.
- everything I do is good works
- I am now righteous because Christ is righteous.

Howzat ?

And in every Bible on this planet, bearing false witness of your brother is a sin.

You act as if you actually think you receive 'brownie points' from God for posts like this. As if God cannot read men's hearts. As if you are actually pulling something over on Him.

YOU are one of the ones working iniquity that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23, as well as in Matthew 23, for you also say, and do not.

Originally posted by bbarr
Nice to hear from you again and to see you're still fighting the good fight. Hope all is well with you and yours!

Moved to Texas from California, I love it here! I do believe and that this is
where I want to live out the rest of my life. Went to a Bible study here
once, where there was shooting range in friends yard, so we had Bible,
BBQ, fellowship not something I'd ever done in California. 🙂 We are all good
and even the kids like it here now, at first not so much, but now I think they
would hurt me if I tried to take them back. LOL
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually I gave you the short version. The long version of what you believe goes like this:

- I believe in Christ
- Christ died for my sins
- Christ and only Christ was righteous
- We are all hopeless sinners
- Christ has given me his Spirit
- I cannot sin.
- everything I do is good works
- I am now righteous because Christ is righteous.

Howzat ?

Don't presume to tell me what I believe.

Originally posted by josephw
Don't presume to tell me what I believe.

Its pretty close though. You just dont like how it sounds when I say it.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Its pretty close though. You just dont like how it sounds when I say it.

You do tend to make things up and spout them off as if they are true when
in fact they are not, and when you get called on it, you move on and don't
come back to at least say your sorry.
Kelly

Originally posted by bbarr
The sermons in the Lutheran church we attend don't really focus on convincing anybody of the putative reality of God and Christ. Some focus on social justice issues, some on virtues of character, some on unpacking Biblical stories to get at their importance for us and our lives. It's a mixed bag. But the people are kind and neighborly and it's a way my wife ...[text shortened]... I also like the coffee and pastries. Old Lutheran ladies can cook!

Hope you're doing well!

I am doing well. Thank you. You sound different. Or maybe it's just me. A major change of some kind? 🙂

"As for me, I'm too far gone to be convinced."

"Too far gone" is an interesting proposition. Like after one already fell off the cliff and it's too late to turn back! But beliefs can change. I guess it depends on some new information coming into play.

"I'm interested in anything interesting anybody has to say about morality, virtue, the good life, human nature, etc."

I find it interesting how one can presume that morality, a thought concept, can have been evolved. How did we develop a conscience awareness of right and wrong as it relates to morality when evolution is an event of the formation of matter into life forms over billions of years?

I cannot fathom how morality and the evolution of matter are related.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Its pretty close though. You just dont like how it sounds when I say it.

Not even remotely close. If you want to know what I believe, read the Bible.

"You just dont like how it sounds when I say it."

I don 't like the sound of a lot of things. So what? But I especially don't like the sound of someone saying the Bible says this or that when in fact it does or doesn't.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You do tend to make things up and spout them off as if they are true when
in fact they are not, and when you get called on it, you move on and don't
come back to at least say your sorry.
Kelly

I dont see that I need to apologise for anything. Many of you [you in particular] do not seem to be able to write clearly about what you believe the doctrine of eternal is all about. Several people here have had long and tedious pages and pages of posts trying to get you to be clear.

Plus there are many here who believe in this OSAS doctrine .. that is once someone accept Christ with your mouth you cannot lose your eternal life. The person can be punished for sin but eternal life is secure. Even in the most grievous or decadent or vile of sins, the Christian still gets eternal life.

Now if I repeat the substance of that doctrine and add on a few other related statements then some will be annoyed.

Eg the end result of such a doctrine is that it is a licence to sin. If a Christian is told that not even God can take away their eternal life then that is an incentive for some to sin.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont see that I need to apologise for anything. Many of you [you in particular] do not seem to be able to write clearly about what you believe the doctrine of eternal is all about. Several people here have had long and tedious pages and pages of posts trying to get you to be clear.

Plus there are many here who believe in this OSAS doctrine .. that is on ...[text shortened]... ld that not even God can take away their eternal life then that is an incentive for some to sin.

"...license to sin."

There is no such thing, but there are those who wish to impose upon the doctrine of grace a works oriented salvation, and so they use that terminology.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"...license to sin."

There is no such thing, but there are those who wish to impose upon the doctrine of grace a works oriented salvation, and so they use that terminology.[/b]

.. works oriented salvation ..

There is no such thing, but there are those who wish to impose upon the doctrine of Christ a faith only salvation, and so they use that terminology.

Originally posted by josephw
I am doing well. Thank you. You sound different. Or maybe it's just me. A major change of some kind? 🙂

[b]"As for me, I'm too far gone to be convinced."

"Too far gone" is an interesting proposition. Like after one already fell off the cliff and it's too late to turn back! But beliefs can change. I guess it depends on some new information coming in ...[text shortened]... over billions of years?

I cannot fathom how morality and the evolution of matter are related.[/b]

I sound different? That's interesting. Being married and out of academia probably has something to do with it.

Beliefs can certainly change, either as a rational response to additional evidence or a better analysis of current evidence. Changes to one's character can lead to change in belief, particularly one's normative/evaluative beliefs. Then, of course, there are arational (not irrational) conversion experiences that can lead to changes in belief. At this point, I have a hard time even imagining what it would take for me to come to believe in God.

I don't believe that evolution has much, if anything, to do with the interesting questions about morality. Perhaps there's some complex causal story to be told concerning the initial appearance and subsequent development of quasi-moral sentiment among our distant ancestors. I haven't heard any good arguments against the possibility. Perhaps empathic identification with conspecifics helped us predict their behavior, cooperate more effectively, share resources and, in other ways, helped us survive. Perhaps the best solution to the collective action problems that beset us in our prehistory was to actually care about our fellows. Who knows?

In any case, causal explanations of morality are different than justifications of morality. It's one thing to show how morality came about. It's another thing entirely to assess whether moral systems are coherent, consistent, reasonable, etc. I'm interested in the later questions.

Originally posted by bbarr
I sound different? That's interesting. Being married and out of academia probably has something to do with it.

Beliefs can certainly change, either as a rational response to additional evidence or a better analysis of current evidence. Changes to one's character can lead to change in belief, particularly one's normative/evaluative beliefs. Then, of cour ...[text shortened]... moral systems are coherent, consistent, reasonable, etc. I'm interested in the later questions.

"I sound different? That's interesting. Being married and out of academia probably has something to do with it." bbar, welcome back. I happen to concur with Joe's impression; there seems to have been a mellowing. Chess game rematch?