What If.....

Originally posted by Mexico
Ahhhh proddie.... I see, well technically I was christened a prod (Church of Ireland) although my dad's a catholic...... And actually both my parents are heathens they and I go to church only for weddings, funerals etc.... Although I did go to a catholic mass recently out of curiosity..... Funny I think I paid more attention than most of the "devout" present. ...[text shortened]... Straight answer please, no bible quotations unless they clearly support your answers...

It seems to me that people quote the bible at you because it is the only weapon they have with which to attack you for daring to hold an opinion which does not suit them. One of the more popular quotations used is, "by grace are ye saved, though faith, not of works lest any man should boast, it is the free gift of God" As for your question about going to hell if you are wrong and God does exist, I would expect the answer would be yes, you will go to hell. But in my opinion, I consider that spending eternity in the company of narrow minded puritanical, pontiticating sin-seekers might be an even worse fate.

Originally posted by Mexico
Come on people, if i'm way off the mark and it turns out its all true and god is in fact always watching..... Am I going to hell??.....

No; an intellectual assent is not a pre-requisite to salvation.James 2.11 states, "Even the demons believe - and shudder." Obviously belief in Jesus does not get one into heaven. Or otherwise you would have to admit the absurdity of devils in heaven.

Further down is written,

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

(James 2: 24)

It would also be sadistic for God to demand anyone to believe in him, given a) some people live in remote areas without the bible, b) some are raised with contempt of religion and predisposed not to believe, c) the evidence for a god is scant and belief therefore unjustified.

Originally posted by Conrau K
No; an intellectual assent is not a pre-requisite to salvation.James 2.11 states, "Even the demons believe - and shudder." Obviously belief in Jesus does not get one into heaven. Or otherwise you would have to admit the absurdity of devils in heaven.

Further down is written,

[quote]See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And i ...[text shortened]... edisposed not to believe, c) the evidence for a god is scant and belief therefore unjustified.

So if we're wrong but we're good people, we'll go to heaven the same way.
That's good 🙂
But I'm quite sure many christians make a different interpretation

Originally posted by serigado
So if we're wrong but we're good people, we'll go to heaven the same way.
That's good 🙂
But I'm quite sure many christians make a different interpretation

Maybe on this forum the Christian camp will disagree. But in real life, most Christians are different.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Maybe on this forum the Christian camp will disagree. But in real life, most Christians are different.

You bet... i never knew Christians could be so fundamentalist and hard headed before coming to these forums.

Originally posted by Conrau K
No; an intellectual assent is not a pre-requisite to salvation.James 2.11 states, "Even the demons believe - and shudder." Obviously belief in Jesus does not get one into heaven. Or otherwise you would have to admit the absurdity of devils in heaven.

Further down is written,

[quote]See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And i ...[text shortened]... edisposed not to believe, c) the evidence for a god is scant and belief therefore unjustified.

=====================

the evidence for a god is scant and belief therefore unjustified.

=========================


This passage argues against your idea of "scant" evidence of God. It argues that people all over the world are without excuse to disbelieve in God as far as a Creator is concerned:

" ... that which is known of God is manifested within them, for God manifested it to them.

For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse." (Romans 1:19,20)

This passage says:

1.) The existence of God is manifested within and to people.

2.) Both the eternal power and divine characteristics of God are indicated to all people through the things which God has made.

3.) These aspects of God (eternal power and divine characteristics) are "clearly seen" by all people.

4.) Perceiving the attributes of God through the created things leaves all men without an excuse. The details of Christ's redemption or of God's plan they may not know. But they are without excuse to not believe in God.


Romans strongly argues against the idea of scant evidence left to peoples of all cultures that there is a Creator God with eternal power and divine charactieristics.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b Romans strongly argues against the idea of scant evidence left to peoples of all cultures that there is a Creator God with eternal power and divine charactieristics.

But to an atheist, Romans has no authority. If people doubt the existence of God, they would also question the truth-claims in the Bible, supposed to be divinely inspired.

So if God expects all people to believe in him as a condition to salvation, then he must offer compelling proof outside dubious worksof scripture.

Originally posted by Conrau K
But to an atheist, Romans has no authority. If people doubt the existence of God, they would also question the truth-claims in the Bible, supposed to be divinely inspired.

So if God expects all people to believe in him as a condition to salvation, then he must offer compelling proof outside dubious worksof scripture.

I don't think the scriptures are dubious - they reflect what we think, and are an important historical document, surely no-one could deny that... Especially not you.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
I don't think the scriptures are dubious - they reflect what we think, and are an important historical document, surely no-one could deny that... Especially not you.

To an atheist, the scripture must perforce have dubious authenticity and pretentions so divine origins.

Originally posted by Conrau K
To an atheist, the scripture must perforce have dubious authenticity and pretentions so divine origins.

Still no straight answer from someone who's studied and believes the bible...... Am I going to hell?

Seriously, I have no faith, I don't believe in God, I think Jesus may have been an inspirational human, who got blown out of proportion, and I only go to church for weddings, funerals and curiosity....
But I've probably done more of what people call gods work than any of the Christians on this message board who go to church on sundays.....

Am I going to hell?

didn't actually mean to quote anyone there sorry...

Originally posted by Mexico
Still no straight answer from someone who's studied and believes the bible...... Am I going to hell?

Seriously, I have no faith, I don't believe in God, I think Jesus may have been an inspirational human, who got blown out of proportion, and I only go to church for weddings, funerals and curiosity....
But I've probably done more of what people call gods ...[text shortened]... the Christians on this message board who go to church on sundays.....

Am I going to hell?

For something with such scant faith, you are obsessively concerned with whether you will go to hell. Are you sure you are an atheist?

Originally posted by Conrau K
For something with such scant faith, you are obsessively concerned with whether you will go to hell. Are you sure you are an atheist?

No you miss the point.... I want clarification on where I stand in the eyes of those I argue with...... Nothing more.... I don't believe in hell to begin with. But I would like to know from someone who considers themselves an authority on the bible whether they believe Im going to Hell or not...

If someone believes your evil and going to hell, because thats what their book tells them, it makes it very easy for them to disregard your reasonable arguments as noting more than the words of the dammed. Trying to drag their pious selves down with you....

You see my point? I simply want to know where I stand with those I argue with...

Originally posted by Mexico
I simply want to know where I stand with those I argue with...

Also, I think your argument highlights one of the most fundamental contradictions in Christian Theology:
1. God is just / fair.
2. God uses an unfair / unjust system to get people into heaven.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Also, I think your argument highlights one of the most fundamental contradictions in Christian Theology:
1. God is just / fair.
2. God uses an unfair / unjust system to get people into heaven.

As I have pointed out, most Christians do not see belief in Christ as pre-requisite for getting into heaven. Different denominations will disagree on how one gets into heaven, but they will all concede that no human can know for certain if any person has ever gone to hell.