Originally posted by Conrau KHow big is that "Most"? A lot of Christians I know do claim that belief in Christ is necessary. I know that a lot don't, but I don't know what the proportions are.
As I have pointed out, most Christians do not see belief in Christ as pre-requisite for getting into heaven. Different denominations will disagree on how one gets into heaven, but they will all concede that no human can know for certain if any person has ever gone to hell.
Originally posted by Green PaladinWell it doesn't say 'belief in Me' it says 'through Me'. One could easily argue that Jesus gets people into heaven even if they didn't believe in him. In fact one could interpret it in many many ways. For example, if one looks at the parable of the sheep and the goats, then Jesus is represented by your 'neighbor' or 'the least of My children'.
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6).
How do they explain this?
Originally posted by twhiteheadWouldn't not believing in Christ make them Jewish?
Well it doesn't say 'belief in Me' it says 'through Me'. One could easily argue that Jesus gets people into heaven even if they didn't believe in him. In fact one could interpret it in many many ways. For example, if one looks at the parable of the sheep and the goats, then Jesus is represented by your 'neighbor' or 'the least of My children'.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadThe orthodox Christian argument goes like this:
Maybe I misunderstood your question. Please rephrase it for me.
1. Belief in God is a necessary but not sufficient condition for entry to heaven.
2. Belief in Christ is a necessary and sufficient condition for entry to heaven.
Conrau K argues that certain people (most Christians) deny that 2 is necessary. You deny that 1 and 2 are necessary. Point being, are we still talking about Christianity here?
Originally posted by Conrau K
As I have pointed out, most Christians do not see belief in Christ as a pre-requisite for getting into heaven.
I suppose I was referring primarily to this statement which I find inconsistent with the view of every Christian I've ever met. Isn't it a Christian duty to convert heathens lest they (the heathens) suffer eternal damnation? Or does this represent some sort of attenuated, new-age Christianity that allows for the theory of evolution, the Big Bang, and whatever else science disagrees with in the Bible?
Originally posted by Green PaladinWe are talking about two different groups of people:
You deny that 1 and 2 are necessary. Point being, are we still talking about Christianity here?
a. Those who believe in Christ ie Christians.
b. Those who will get into heaven.
Some Christians believe that b. is a subset of a. Others do not. I do not see any contradiction with a Christian believing in Christ and simultaneously believing that I, an atheist, who does not believe in either Christ or God, will still get into heaven under certain conditions. In fact, the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, implies that Jesus did not include belief as the primary condition.
There could be other reasons also why a Christian desires that he convert non-Christians eg:
* so that they believe in and worship God - considered a good thing.
* so that they, as a result of their beliefs, do the right thing and thus get into heaven, which they might not have done if they had not converted.
Also one must keep in mind that it is wrong to assume that a Christians sole motive in doing anything is a desire to get himself or others into heaven. Surely if a Christian believe that his beliefs are the truth, then simple compassion should lead him to want to spread that knowledge to others.
Originally posted by Green PaladinA large proportion of Christians throughout the ages have had beliefs that include not taking all of the Bible completely literally. There is nothing 'new-age' about it.
Or does this represent some sort of attenuated, new-age Christianity that allows for the theory of evolution, the Big Bang, and whatever else science disagrees with in the Bible?
Whenever a scientific discovery is made that appears to contradict widely held beliefs, some people change their beliefs, some people loose their faith, and some people reject the findings.
For example, what do you think will happen when the first fully conscious and intelligent robot is created? Most Christians will recognize that it creates a possible problem with their theology. Some will become atheists, some will find ways to reconcile it with their theology, others will deny its existence.
Originally posted by Green PaladinActually, the orthodox belief (as maintained by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches which comprise the majority of Christians) is that baptism is necessary to access heaven. The belief derives from John 3:5,
The orthodox Christian argument goes like this:
1. Belief in God is a necessary but not sufficient condition for entry to heaven.
2. Belief in Christ is a necessary and sufficient condition for entry to heaven.
Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
It is baptism, not faith, which imparts the economy of grace necessary for salvation. And those who are not baptised by water can receive baptism through either the baptism of desire or baptism of blood. When a person either implicitly or explicitly desires a baptism, it is granted that they have truly received the sacrament of baptism. Thus, a non-Christian who lives a moral life could theoretically enter heaven because their good deeds reflect a desire to be baptised and serve God (and given different circumstances, such as childhood or family, would have been baptised.)
I rarely find any Christian articulate such a rigid view of salvation that only those of faith can enter heaven. And the only examples I have ever encountered are on this forum.
Originally posted by twhiteheadHow so?
For example, what do you think will happen when the first fully conscious and intelligent robot is created? Most Christians will recognize that it creates a possible problem with their theology. Some will become atheists, some will find ways to reconcile it with their theology, others will deny its existence.
Originally posted by Green PaladinIn the gospel of John, the theology of Jesus' death is far more advanced. Jesus is tacitly revealed as the pascal lamb whose sacrifice will remit all sins and enable the dead to enter heaven. I imagine this verse affirms the salvific role of Jesus whose death will allow all to be God, the Father.
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6).
How do they explain this?
In my opinion, the quote does not stipulate that belief in Jesus is a necessity to enter heaven, just that Jesus through Jesus, the path to heaven has become available.
Originally posted by Conrau KIt is my understanding that the RCC position is that no one can know who will go to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. Is that not correct?
Actually, the orthodox belief (as maintained by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches which comprise the majority of Christians) is that baptism is necessary to access heaven. The belief derives from John 3:5,
[quote] Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom o ...[text shortened]... hose of faith can enter heaven. And the only examples I have ever encountered are on this forum.