What If.....

Originally posted by Conrau K
It is. It is also hotly disputed whether anyone is in hell.

There's no doubt according to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Originally posted by no1marauder
There's no doubt according to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal se ...[text shortened]... alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

But if the person in a state of mortal sin makes a perfect act of contrition, that they are truly penitent for their sins, the mortal sin is forgiven (the same principle operates for those in a state of mortal sin who are repentent but unable to receive absolution. They are still entitled to receive the Eucharist.) Ergo, no one can be certain whether anyone is in hell.

Originally posted by Conrau K
But if the person in a state of mortal sin makes a perfect act of contrition, that they are truly penitent for their sins, the mortal sin is forgiven (the same principle operates for those in a state of mortal sin who are repentent but unable to receive absolution. They are still entitled to receive the Eucharist.) Ergo, no one can be certain whether anyone is in hell.

I don't agree for two reasons:

One, according to Catholic doctrine, people were already in Hell before Jesus. Jesus descended to Hell and brought the righteous to Heaven but left the damned behind according to, I think, 635, of the Catechism. Thus, those who were damned before Jesus are still in Hell.

Two, 1022 states: Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

There are three possibilities; it strains the express wording to suggest that there is an actual Hell, but that no one ever goes there. If that were so, the last phrase is superfluous.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I don't agree for two reasons:

One, according to Catholic doctrine, people were already in Hell before Jesus. Jesus descended to Hell and brought the righteous to Heaven but left the damned behind according to, I think, 635, of the Catechism. Thus, those who were damned before Jesus are still in Hell.

Two, 1022 states: Each man ...[text shortened]... actual Hell, but that no one ever goes there. If that were so, the last phrase is superfluous.

One, according to Catholic doctrine, people were already in Hell before Jesus. Jesus descended to Hell and brought the righteous to Heaven but left the damned behind according to, I think, 635, of the Catechism. Thus, those who were damned before Jesus are still in Hell.

Passages 632-635 discuss Jesus' descent into hell. It mentions that his entrance into hell fulfilled his universal role as saviour to all people. But while it states that Jesus delivered the righteous, there is no mention that anyone remained behind.

Two, 1022 states: Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

These are the three possibilities open to any soul. I do not see how it is strained to interpret that no soul has taken the last option. If the Church teaches that it cannot know who has gone to hell, then it admits the possibility that anyone could have circumvented hell. Thus, if anyone has the possibility, it is possible that all have entered heaven. (I realise that I have given a very convoluted explanation. Not sure how to rephrase it more coherently.)

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]One, according to Catholic doctrine, people were already in Hell before Jesus. Jesus descended to Hell and brought the righteous to Heaven but left the damned behind according to, I think, 635, of the Catechism. Thus, those who were damned before Jesus are still in Hell.

Passages 632-635 discuss Jesus' descent into hell. It mentions that his entra ...[text shortened]... that I have given a very convoluted explanation. Not sure how to rephrase it more coherently.)[/b]

633 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

I think that passage makes it pretty clear.

The fact that we don't know whether any particular person goes to Hell, does not imply that we don't know whether anyone is in Hell. If the Church had wanted to state that no one goes to Hell, it could have. Instead, it clearly says that Hell is a real place that souls go to for eternal damnation. I might not know which persons are going to be at Yankee Stadium on opening day nor how many are going to be there, but I can be fairly certain that someone will be there.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]One, according to Catholic doctrine, people were already in Hell before Jesus. Jesus descended to Hell and brought the righteous to Heaven but left the damned behind according to, I think, 635, of the Catechism. Thus, those who were damned before Jesus are still in Hell.

Passages 632-635 discuss Jesus' descent into hell. It mentions that his entra ...[text shortened]... that I have given a very convoluted explanation. Not sure how to rephrase it more coherently.)[/b]

Surely for anyone to go to heaven they have to be in the Catholic church, according to Catholic doctrine ? surely?

Originally posted by snowinscotland
Surely for anyone to go to heaven they have to be in the Catholic church, according to Catholic doctrine ? surely?

Nope. According to this lot you just have to be an easy-going sort of bloke.

NRS Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened.

So—


22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

_______________________________________

I can find no fault with jaywill’s plain reading of verses 19 and 20 (in bold above). I have only added the rest of it to flesh out (pun alert!) what a Christian who believes that Paul’s words are true must conclude about atheists and non-dualists (Vedantist, Taoist, Buddhist—I will use the term “nontheist” to lump the two together). I don’t think it is intended that each nontheist must be guilty of all of them, but the general characterizations of “debased minds” and “degrading passions” likely are.

Nonetheless (and returning to verse 19-20), it seems axiomatic for Paul—and any Christian who believes him—that all nontheists are thereby liars, “without excuse”.

I do not feel personally offended: jaywill and others who believe that Paul is speaking the truth may not feel very good about that conclusion; they may not feel very comfortable with it, but their belief in the inerrancy of scripture compels that conclusion whether they like it or not.

I, like others on here, have stated before why, in the face of diligent self-examination, it does not seem to me—or make sense to me—that I am lying.* I also have no reason to assume that other atheists/nontheists on here are lying about it either.

Therefore, I am compelled to the counter-conclusion: St. Paul either does not really know of which he speaks, or he is himself being dishonest. His not knowing may be because of some cultural/contextual limitation.** But still, to put it plainly: Paul is either ignorant or a liar.

[* Of course, the next move on the part of the Christian believer is often to then doubt such diligence on my part, but assume that it too is just part of my personal cycle of dishonesty. Actually, no one who believes St. Paul here can believe that anything I say about my beliefs on the subject are anything but dishonest.]

[** This might include his only knowing of some particular version of "disbelief" in a creator-god, to which his remarks are addressed. That would be a question of some alternative exegesis, perhaps based on some historical context; absent that, my remarks are based on the aforementioned plain reading of the text.]

_________________________________________

My conclusion may offend some Christians. My point, however, is this: as long as I believe that they believe a lie, and they believe that I am lying, there can be no fruitful discourse on the topic at all. We can only preach uselessly at each other.

Originally posted by vistesd
NRS Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. [b]19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been und ...[text shortened]... can be no fruitful discourse on the topic at all. We can only preach uselessly at each other.

Well put, pretty much illustrates the point I was trying to make....

I've stated this before but I like the analogy. Arguing religious doctrine with someone who truly believes is similar to playing table tennis with a wall. You'll loose, not because the wall is better at table tennis than you, simply because its a wall........

The main reason I still post here is to curb the religious passing on their beliefs as any form of science.....

Originally posted by no1marauder
The fact that we don't know whether any particular person goes to Hell, does not imply that we don't know whether anyone is in Hell. If the Church had wanted to state that no one goes to Hell, it could have. Instead, it clearly says that Hell is a real place that souls go to for eternal damnation. I might not know which persons are going to be a ...[text shortened]... ay nor how many are going to be there, but I can be fairly certain that someone will be there.

You can be fairly certain that the Stadium will be full, but there is always the slim possibility that it could be empty.

As far as the Church teaches, heaven, hell and purgatory are real places where souls can go - whether they do go to those three places is not established. It is possible that hell is just an empty threat.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
Surely for anyone to go to heaven they have to be in the Catholic church, according to Catholic doctrine ? surely?

To enter heaven, according to the Catholic Church, requires membership in the Christian Church, which visibly subsists within the Roman Catholic Church. The stance of the Catholic Church is that the Church established by Jesus survives through the Catholic Church which preserves the truths and graces imparted by God.

However, elements of the Catholic Church also exist in Protestant and Orthodox churches (the denominator between all three being baptism and marriage.) So even a fervent anti-papist accesses the graces of the Catholic Church through participation in their own protestant rituals (derived from the Catholic Church). The teaching of the Catholic Church that there is "no salvation outside the church" is broadly interpreted now to mean that "beyond or without the sacraments established by the Catholic Church, there could be no salvation."

Furthermore, people of non-Christian faiths may be invisibly part of the Christian Church in ways only known by God. A Muslim, for example, may receive the graces of God and do God's will unbeknown to themselves. They too, therefore, go to heaven.

Originally posted by Conrau K
To enter heaven, according to the Catholic Church, requires membership in the Christian Church, which visibly subsists within the Roman Catholic Church. The stance of the Catholic Church is that the Church established by Jesus survives through the Catholic Church which preserves the truths and graces imparted by God.

However, elements of the Catholic Ch graces of God and do God's will unbeknown to themselves. They too, therefore, go to heaven.

So, one who 'receive(s) the graces of God and do(es) God's will .... go(es) to heaven'

This then might well be someone not in the Catholic church.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
So, one who 'receive(s) the graces of God and do(es) God's will .... go(es) to heaven'

This then might well be someone not in the Catholic church.

Exactly.

Originally posted by stoker
god / jesus will judge not your religion but your actions, he said if you do my work, he will know you. For there will be NO religion temples in his house

whats his work?