"What We Believe"

GB, why did you name this thread "What We Believe", when obviously, this is what the pastor of that church believes, and by extension maybe we can believe that it is what you believe?

Why assume the "We"?

I think the closest one could get to a "We" belief is maybe spelled out in the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed.

Here is the Nicene Creed as used by the Episcopal Church of America.

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen."

I would think that any statement of belief claiming to have a "What We Believe" commonality would have to be minimal in nature, and not nearly as detailed and exhaustively spelled out as in your OP. Your thoughts? (And I am asking for your thoughts, not the pastor's. 🙂 )

Originally posted by Suzianne
GB, why did you name this thread "What We Believe", when obviously, this is what the pastor of that church believes, and by extension maybe we can believe that it is what you believe?

Why assume the "We"?

I think the closest one could get to a "We" belief is maybe spelled out in the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed.

Here is the Nicene Cre ...[text shortened]... s in your OP. Your thoughts? (And I am asking for your thoughts, not the pastor's. 🙂 )

"Wenstrom Bible Ministries
Pastor Bill Wenstrom
Doctrinal Topics
Exposition
Word Studies
History
People
Prep School
Study Aids

"What We Believe"

The Bible
We believe that the Bible, composed of 66 canonical books in their original languages, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God (Psa 119:89; 2Ti 3:16; 2Pe 1:20-21).

Trinity
We believe that God is a Trinity of 3 Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit who are all co-equal, co-infinite and co-eternal. Each person of the Trinity has the same attributes, perfections, and authority. (Deut 6:4; 2Co 13:14).

Total Depravity of Man
We believe that man is created in the image of God but as a result of Adam's original sin of disobedience in the garden of Eden, the entire human race receives a totally corrupt and depraved nature. Every member of the human race is born physically alive but spiritually dead meaning they are separated from God. This totally depraved state of man qualifies him for grace. Grace is all that God is free to do based solely on the merits of the Person and Work of Christ. Man has absolutely no ability to redeem himself or restore his relationship with God (Rom 3:22-23, 5:12-17; Eph 2:12).

Person and Work of Christ
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became a human being while maintaining His divine nature. He is undiminished deity and true humanity in one Person forever (John 1:14; 1 Tim. 3:16; Col. 1:15, 19; 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 1:3; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 2:14; 1 John 1:1-2; 4:2; 2 John 1:7). He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary to reveal God, fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law, redeem the entire human race, and resolve the ancient pre-historic war between God and the fallen angels by the total defeat of Satan. We believe that Jesus Christ fully accomplished redemption for the entire human race through His voluntary, substitutionary, spiritual death on the cross (Col. 1:13-14; Eph. 1:7).

The Father was propitiated by this death of the impeccable humanity of Christ in hypostatic union and therefore accepted the total outpouring of His Son's human soul unto death, which was the result of His substitutionary spiritual death (Isa 53:9-12; cf. 1 Jn. 2:2). Christ's death also reconciled the entire human race to God (2 Cor. 5:18-21; Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 1:22; 1 Pet. 2:24). The Father's acceptance of His death demonstrated by the literal physical resurrection of the humanity of Christ from the dead (Luk 1:35; Joh 1:1; Rom 3:24-26; 4:24-25; 1Co 15:1-4; 2Co 5:21; Heb 9:22; 13:20-21; 1Pe 1:3-5, 18-20, 2:24, 3:18). Furthermore, we believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has been promoted to the highest rank position in the government of God, over the entire cosmos and has supreme power and authority over it since He is now seated at the right hand of the Father (Phlp. 2:6-11). At the right hand of the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ is the church age believer's Great High Priest, acting as both intercessor and advocate for believers. The Lord Jesus Christ is the indisputable and acknowledged Head of the Church, which is His body. He will return to crush all the enemies of God who are rebellion against Him (Rom 8:34; Eph 1:19-23; Heb 7:25-27; 1 John 1:1-2). He has the authority to conduct the judgment of all unbelievers at the conclusion of human history (Rev. 20:11-15) as well as the evaluation of all church age believers (1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10), and the evaluation of all regenerate Israel (Ezek. 20:37-38; Zech. 13:8-9; Mal. 3:2-3, 5; Matt. 25:1-30).

Person and Work of the Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is a person not a force (Jn. 14:26; 16:13-15). He convicts the world of the sin of unbelief (Jn. 16:7-14), restrains evil from its ultimate manifestation (2 Thess. 2:6-7), glorifies Christ and guides believers into all truth (Joh 16:7-14). The Holy Spirit makes the Word of God understandable to the believer (1 Cor. 2:10-16). We believe that at the moment a person exercises faith alone in Christ, the omnipotence of God the Holy Spirit places that person in an eternal union with Christ, thus identifying the believer with Christ in His death and resurrection positionally (1 Cor. 12:12-13; Ga. 3:26-28), which forms the basis for experiential sanctification. God the Holy Spirit also permanently indwells (1 Cor. 3:16), seals (Eph. 1:13), and regenerates each believer (Jn. 3:1-8; Titus 3:3-5). He guides and empowers the believer to do the will of the Father (Eph. 5:18; Phlp. 2:13) It is the responsibility of each believer to be filled by means of the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) and to walk by means of the Spirit (Gal. 5:17). The believer is prohibited from either quenching (1 Thess. 5:19), or grieving Him (Eph. 4:30).

Salvation
We believe that eternal salvation is received by the sinner who makes the non-meritorious decision to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ's accomplished redemption on the cross provided man's reconciliation to God. (Joh 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 20:31; Act 16:31; Rom 3:24-25; 5:11, 16; 2Co 5:18-21; Eph 2:8-9).

Eternal Security
We believe that all believers are eternally secure. Each has the right to personal assurance of their eternal security. (Joh 10:27-30; Rom 8:1, 38-39; 1Co 1:4-8; 1Th 5:23-24; Heb 10:14).

Church
We believe that the church, which is the Body of Christ is composed of all church age believers. The church is a spiritual organism, and all believers are in union with Christ and is not based upon affiliation with Christian denominations or organizations. (1Co 12:12-14; Eph 1:22).

Satan
We believe that Satan, as the Scriptures state, is the greatest creature ever to come from the hand of God (Ezek. 28:12-13). He is presently the ruler of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; 2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 2:2), which he usurped from Adam in the garden (Gen. 3:1-5). He was the "anointed cherub who covers" (Ezek. 28:14). He led the angels in worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ in eternity past. He became arrogant by reason of his perfect wisdom and beauty (Ezek. 28:16-17) and became disenchanted with his position and rebelled against God. He led a rebellion against God taking with him a third of the angels (Rev. 12:4). He was sentenced to the Lake of Fire by God with a third of the angels (Mt. 25:41), but has been graciously granted an appeal by God. Human history outworking of this appeal of Satan's. He is now the openly declared enemy of God. Satan's objective both then and now is to be like God and to usurp the throne of heaven (Isa. 14:14). He was defeated at the Cross by Christ. His sentence will be executed at the completion of human history and will then be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:10-15).

Dispensations
We believe that a dispensation is a period of time during in which God employs a particular plan and man is tested to see if he will be obedient to that specific plan. We also believe that a dispensation is a period of human history explained in terms of divine revelation. History is defined as a series of administrations or eras. Each dispensation reflects the unfolding of God's plan for mankind and constitutes the divine viewpoint of history. It is essential for believers to understand dispensationalism in order to orient to God's will, plan, and purpose for their specific period of history that they are living in (Eph 1:7-11; 3:16; Rom 16:25-26; Col 1:26; Joh 1:16-17).

Rapture
We believe that the next great event in the fulfillment of prophecy will be the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to gather the church to Himself in the earth's atmosphere. He will receive to Himself believers who have died and believers who are alive at His coming. This is also known as the "Rapture" or "Resurrection of the Church" (1Co 15:51-57; 1Th 4:13-18; Tit 2:11-14).

Tribulation
We believe that the rapture of the Church will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel's seventieth week. The latter half of this seven-year period is the time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation (Jer 30:7; Dan 9:27; Mat 24:15-21; Rev 6:19).

2nd Advent of Christ
We believe that the Great Tribulation will culminate in the (pre-millennial) return of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth to set up His kingdom. At this time He will literally land on the Mount of Olives and will deliver the nation of Israel from her enemies. This event will mark the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on planet earth (Zec 14:4-11; Mat 24:15-25; 2Th 1:7-10; Rev 20:6).

Eternal State
We believe that the soul and the human spirit of those who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation immediately pass into His presence at the moment of physical death (2 Cor. 5:8). The soul and the human spirit remain in conscious bliss until the resurrection of the body at His coming. At this time, soul, human spirit and body reunite, and shall forever be associated with His glory. The souls of unbelievers remain after death in conscious misery until the final judgment of the Great White Throne at the close of the millennium. At this time, the soul and body reunited shall be cast into the eternal Lake of Fire. Not to be annihilated but to be salted with everlasting destruction and banished from the presence of the Lord forever (Luk 16:19-26; 23:43; 2Co 5:8; Phi 1:23; 2Th 1:7-9; Jud 6:7; Rev 20:11-15).

Responsibility of the Believer
The responsibility of the believer after salvation is to desire the sincere milk of the Word and to be continually nourished by it so that he may grow spiritually in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is God's desire that first every man be saved, and secondly that every believer in Christ come to intimately know Him through the inculcation of the Word of God (1Ti 2:4). The effectual work of God's Word brings the believer into...

"Wenstrom Bible Ministries
Pastor Bill Wenstrom
"What We Believe" (2 of 2)

Responsibility of the Believer
The responsibility of the believer after salvation is to desire the sincere milk of the Word and to be continually nourished by it so that he may grow spiritually in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is God's desire that first every man be saved, and secondly that every believer in Christ come to intimately know Him through the inculcation of the Word of God (1Ti 2:4). The effectual work of God's Word brings the believer into adjustment with God's purpose, plan, and will. The internal execution of God's Word brings glory to the Lord (Rom 12:1-2; 2Co 13:9; 1Ti 4:6; 1Pe 2:2; 2Pe 3:18).

Church Ordinance
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ instituted the Lord's Supper to be observed until His return (1Co 11:23-36).

Sovereignty
We believe that God, existing as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is sovereign. He exercises supreme and absolute rule over all creation as a part of, and consistent with, the essence and attributes of deity (1Ch 29:11-12; Dan 4:35; Psa 24:1; Eph 1:11; 1Ti 6:15). However God in His sovereignty will not violate the free will of man. The free will of man and the sovereignty of God coexist by divine decree (1Ti 2:4-6; Rom 5:8-10: 32-33; 16:24-25; Joh 3:16, 36).

Spirituality
Though salvation is the result of one decision to believe, spirituality is the result of continuous decisions to depend upon the Holy Spirit and to be filled with the Spirit. The believer is mandated not to quench nor to grieve the Spirit by personal sin and by rejection of His grace and power. In addition, to walk by means of the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit, the Christian life can only be fulfilled by the power of the Spirit (Gal 5:16; Eph 4:30; 5:18; 1Th 5:19). We also affirm that a believer's intimacy with the Holy Spirit, also known as fellowship, is suspended once he commits personal sins. This intimacy is restored when he names and cites his sin(s) to God (1 John 1:9).

Spiritual Gifts
We believe that God the Holy Spirit, in grace and apart from any human merit, administers a spiritual gift to believers in this dispensation. Some permanent spiritual gifts in existence today are Pastor/Teachers, Evangelists, and Administrators. We further maintain that the temporary spiritual gifts ceased with the completion of the canon of scripture. These temporary gifts were, apostleship, prophecy, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, healing and working of miracles (1Co 12:13; Eph 4:7-12; Rom 12:4-8). Though spiritual gifts of miracles and healing have ceased, God may, and does, heal and miraculously intervene by His direct action (Isa 46:10; Mat 28:18; Jam 5:16)."

http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php?name=StaticText&pagename=what_we_believe
______________________________________________

Originally posted by Suzianne
GB, why did you name this thread "What We Believe", when obviously, this is what the pastor of that church believes, and by extension maybe we can believe that it is what you believe?

Why assume the "We"?

Suzi, I retained the title and definitive text verbatim out of respect for Pastor Wenstrom's work product. I also believe it.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
So the statement quoted adequately answers the question?

"The purpose of this church is to make sound doctrine available to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." This means (to me) that his church is not about outreach beyond "... believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." He's got his flock and it does not include me. But I assume it includes you, as you defer to him.

It's his church. So be it.

Originally posted by JS357
"The purpose of this church is to make sound doctrine available to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." This means (to me) that his church is not about outreach beyond "... believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." He's got his flock and it does not include me. But I assume it includes you, as you defer to him.

It's his church. So be it.

Yes. Bill Wenstrom has the Gift of Pastor-Teacher. He systematically teaches the whole realm of Bible Doctrine from the original languages; presenting accurate salvation information for the benefit of unbelievers is part of this responsibility.

Note: Though a local church, its outreach is not geographically limited: MP3CD Ordering is shown on the Home Page.
I recently discovered this site which is unrelated to the three Pastor Teachers I've learned from over the decades.

"He's got his flock and it does not include me." JS, are you searching for "sound doctrine" from a pastor-teacher?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Wenstrom Bible Ministries
Pastor Bill Wenstrom
[b]"What We Believe" (2 of 2)

Responsibility of the Believer
The responsibility of the believer after salvation is to desire the sincere milk of the Word and to be continually nourished by it so that he may grow spiritually in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is G ...[text shortened]... d definitive text verbatim out of respect for Pastor Wenstrom's work product. I also believe it.[/b]

I think what Suzianne is getting at is there are many denominations in the Christian Churches for a reason. Each denomination emphasizes one or more beliefs over others and may be different in some manner than another. So when you say, "What We Believe", it should be made clear as to what denomination or group it refers to.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think what Suzianne is getting at is there are many denominations in the Christian Churches for a reason. Each denomination emphasizes one or more beliefs over others and may be different in some manner than another. So when you say, "What We Believe", it should be made clear as to what denomination or group it refers to.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
Originally posted by JS357
Thanks. I see a reassertion that the Bible in its original language is the literal word of god. (by search on the word "original" in what you referenced). So I take it I am correct in saying that he believes God did not preserve the accuracy of any translation. I am surprised he does not address this more directly. I would think it would be of some concern, given the lack of availability of the original texts. But I know there are entire denominations that don't put much emphasis on personally reading the Bible. His might be one of them.
_______________________________________

JS, I appreciate your interest. Pastor Wenstrom's teaching ministry is non-denominational. The conclusion: "So I take it I am correct in saying that he believes God did not preserve the accuracy of any translation. I am surprised he does not address this more directly. I would think it would be of some concern, given the lack of availability of the original texts." is to the best of knowledge inaccurate. In the interest of clarification, please consider an email or postal mail contact with him.

Mailing Address: Wenstrom Bible Ministries P.O. Box 112 Marion, Iowa 52302
Email: info@wenstrom.org and orders@wenstrom.org"

http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php?name=StaticText&pagename=what_we_believe

Ron, Pastor Wenstrom's teaching ministry take place at an independent local church without denominational affiliation.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
In the interest of clarification, please consider an email or postal mail contact with him.

From your responses to this thread so far, it appears that 'what you believe' is not actually understood by you. You simply take it on authority from a pastor-teacher.
The question then, is can you truly believe something when you don't even know what it means? If your statement of belief was in ancient Greek, could you still be said to believe it?
Is this really belief, or is this 'I've been told to believe this to get into heaven, so I must tell people I believe it'?

Originally posted by twhitehead
From your responses to this thread so far, it appears that 'what you believe' is not actually understood by you. You simply take it on authority from a pastor-teacher.
The question then, is can you truly believe something when you don't even know what it means? If your statement of belief was in ancient Greek, could you still be said to believe it?
Is t ...[text shortened]... is this 'I've been told to believe this to get into heaven, so I must tell people I believe it'?

Pastor Bill Wenstrom
"What We Believe" (2 of 2)

"Responsibility of the Believer: The responsibility of the believer after salvation is to desire the sincere milk of the Word and to be continually nourished by it so that he may grow spiritually in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is God's desire that first every man be saved, and secondly that every believer in Christ come to intimately know Him through the inculcation of the Word of God (1Ti 2:4). The effectual work of God's Word brings the believer into adjustment with God's purpose, plan, and will. The internal execution of God's Word brings glory to the Lord (Rom 12:1-2; 2Co 13:9; 1Ti 4:6; 1Pe 2:2; 2Pe 3:18)."

The Holy Spirit enables a believer's human spirit to understand spiritual truth from a pastor teaching biblical passages accurately. The pastor's authority is his faithful exercise [studying daily] of the divinely bestowed gift. Bible Doctrine in not learned in linear fashion; it is learned by epignosis or building blocks one integrated upon another. Without clarity there is no learning, which is why basic doctrines must be learned first as both a foundation and context. There is no coercion to tell people 'I believe it' ever. Witnessing effectively occurs only when a maturing believer, acquiring the Mind of Christ, has opportunity to present the simple gospel [good news] that God has made total provision to reconcile mankind to Himself.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Wenstrom Bible Ministries
Pastor Bill Wenstrom
[b]"What We Believe" (2 of 2)

Responsibility of the Believer
The responsibility of the believer after salvation is to desire the sincere milk of the Word and to be continually nourished by it so that he may grow spiritually in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is G ...[text shortened]... d definitive text verbatim out of respect for Pastor Wenstrom's work product. I also believe it.[/b]

You believe this is what "We" all believe?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think what Suzianne is getting at is there are many denominations in the Christian Churches for a reason. Each denomination emphasizes one or more beliefs over others and may be different in some manner than another. So when you say, "What We Believe", it should be made clear as to what denomination or group it refers to.

Exactly, Ron.

Perfectly stated.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
Originally posted by JS357
Thanks. I see a reassertion that the Bible in its original language is the literal word of god. (by search on the word "original" in what you referenced). So I take it I am correct in saying that he believes God did not preserve the accuracy of any translation. I am su ...[text shortened]... teaching ministry take place at an independent local church without denominational affiliation.

Still, it is NOT what "We" believe. It is what HE believes, and what YOU believe. Intimating that it is what we ALL believe is wrong.

I believe that was my point.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Suzi, I retained the title and definitive text verbatim out of respect for Pastor Wenstrom's work product. I also believe it.

Yet you present it here like this is somehow a complete and comprehensive explanation of what all Christians believe.

The Nicene Creed is closer to this aim. Notice it leaves out things that not all Christians believe in. This was my point. ANYthing purporting to be "What We Believe" must be minimal yet covering the basics.

I asked you for YOUR thoughts and you re-post your OP with two sentences added from your own mind. This was what I was hoping to avoid by saying I wanted your thoughts, not the pastor's.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Yes. Bill Wenstrom has the Gift of Pastor-Teacher. He systematically teaches the whole realm of Bible Doctrine from the original languages; presenting accurate salvation information for the benefit of unbelievers is part of this responsibility.

Note: Though a local church, its outreach is not geographically limited: MP3CD Ordering is shown on the Ho ...[text shortened]... k and it does not include me." JS, are you searching for "sound doctrine" from a pastor-teacher?

No. When I see a statement that seems to exclude translations into spoken tongues from the inspired canon, it interests me for a while. It leads me to think of the time when the Bible was only available to the clergy, and only in Latin, in places where nobody but the clergy spoke Latin, and even then, only the imported higher-up clergy, not those minor clergy recruited from the population. I am speaking of the Pre-Reformation RC Church.

I am surprised that there is not more concern about this coming from Christians here, who are only too happy to quote English translations of the Bible as though they are God's Word. This includes you, GB.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think what Suzianne is getting at is there are many denominations in the Christian Churches for a reason. Each denomination emphasizes one or more beliefs over others and may be different in some manner than another. So when you say, "What We Believe", it should be made clear as to what denomination or group it refers to.

Well, I think he is referring to those who are, in his mind, "True Christians (TM)"