Originally posted by Suzianne
The Nicene Creed is closer to this aim. Notice it leaves out things that not all Christians believe in. This was my point. ANYthing purporting to be "What We Believe" must be minimal yet covering the basics.

Yet the Nicene Creed clearly covers beliefs that not all people that call themselves Christian hold - although it probably does cover the majority of Christians - or at least the official doctrine of their churches. In my experience most Christians do not know what the official doctrine of their Church is, nor believe it in full even if they do know.

Originally posted by JS357
Well, I think he is referring to those who are, in his mind, "True Christians (TM)"

Well, then, that doesn't include me, a thing I take great exception to.

That's my whole point.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet the Nicene Creed clearly covers beliefs that not all people that call themselves Christian hold - although it probably does cover the majority of Christians - or at least the official doctrine of their churches. In my experience most Christians do not know what the official doctrine of their Church is, nor believe it in full even if they do know.

This is true, we must all try to find the 'best fit' for us.

But in an attempt to remain inclusive, the Nicene Creed avoids mentioning stuff like the Trinity, the Rapture, and other hot-button points of contention between Christians.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is true, we must all try to find the 'best fit' for us.

But in an attempt to remain inclusive, the Nicene Creed avoids mentioning stuff like the Trinity, the Rapture, and other hot-button points of contention between Christians.

The nicene Creed I looked up, not only mentions the trinity, but clearly states that anyone who doesn't accept it "the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them."
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

And your 'best fit' clearly leaves out the JWs.

Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is true, we must all try to find the 'best fit' for us.

But in an attempt to remain inclusive, the Nicene Creed avoids mentioning stuff like the Trinity, the Rapture, and other hot-button points of contention between Christians.

While we're at it, we should include the Anathasian Creed:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

"Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living[16] and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Said to be widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Churches and most liturgical Protestant denominations,... (Wikipedia)

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think what Suzianne is getting at is there are many denominations in the Christian Churches for a reason. Each denomination emphasizes one or more beliefs over others and may be different in some manner than another. So when you say, "What We Believe", it should be made clear as to what denomination or group it refers to.

Blimey, RJ writes a sensible post. There must be a god after all!

Penguin

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"The Doctrine of Canonicity" (Page 2)

"... equivalent to the O.T. Six church leaders are commonly referred to: Barnabas, Hermas, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Papias, and Ignatius (Berkhof, The History of Christian Doctrines, 37). Although these men lacked the technical sophistication of today's theologians, their correspondence confirmed the teach ...[text shortened]... ists....*

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/bibliolgy/canonicity.pdf[/b]

"The Doctrine of Canonicity"

Although these early Church Fathers may seem rather ill prepared to hand down all the subtle implications of the Christian faith to the coming generations, they form a doctrinal link to the Apostles (and thus to our Lord Jesus Christ), as well as a witness to the growing commitment to the Canon of Scripture that would become the N.T. As Clement of Rome said in first century, "Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit". Geisler, Decide For Yourself, Page 11). [Page 2 of 45*]

The Apologists....

"Third, consider The Wiles of Satan. Through all of the centuries, God in
sovereign grace and by His power watched over and protected His Word against
the wicked onslaughts of the Devil. Paul warned the believers at Ephesus that
they would be facing "the wiles of the Devil" (Ephesians 6:11). The word "wiles"
means methods. Satan's methods are characterized by cunning, deceit, and
trickery. One of his methods is to infiltrate the good and the holy with the bad and
the unholy. This he tried to do when the Roman Catholic Church officially
recognized the apocryphal books in A.D. 1545. But God overruled Satan's trickery
to include those forgeries.

But the battle against God's Word has been a neverending
one. The story of the Bible's persecution is an amazing one. The hatred
against it has been persistent and relentless. Every scheme of destruction which
man's unregenerate mind could conjure has been brought against it. During the
early centuries of the Christian era some of the most cruel and merciless
persecutions were meted out to men and women who held sacred the Word of
God. So seemingly effective were the attacks that the enemies supposed they had
eradicated the Bible.

In A.D. 303 Diocletian, Emperor of the Roman Empire, sought to obliterate the
Bible through an official decree that any person possessing even a portion of the
Bible should be slain. When John Wycliffe presented the Scriptures in the
vernacular of the people in England, the Roman Catholic Church marked him out
for death. That saintly scholar of Baliol College, Oxford, escaped the Devil's
attempt to slay him. He died in 1384, but the Roman Church was so infuriated
over Wycliffe's publishing the Scriptures in English that in 1415 she dug up his
bones, burned the remains with fire, and threw the ashes upon a dunghill.

And then in 1816 Pope Pius VII issued a papal bull declaring every organization and
institution that distributed the Scriptures "a fiendish instrument for the
undermining of the foundations of religion." And yet the Bible stands, this
impregnable Rock of Holy Scripture. Men fling themselves against it in all their
fury, but instead of them breaking the Book, the Book crushes them. Bibles have
been burned and torn to pieces, but God's Holy Word remains triumphant. In our
world of darkness and despair the Bible shines forth as the scintillating light to
lead men aright.

The Bible is the only light for man's pathway (Psalm 119:105); the one Light
shining in a dark place (II Peter 1:19). The Bible is the greatest luminary on the
earth to bring men to God. It is the one beacon of hope in the night of men's sin.
However dark the shadows of sin and sorrow might become, the Light will always

be there for those who will follow. “Holy Bible, Book divine, Precious treasure, thou art mine."

When the poet and novelist, Sir Walter Scott, lay dying, he said to his son-inlaw,
Lockhart, "Son, please bring me the Book." The son-in-law was a bit
uncertain because Walter Scott had a large library, so he replied, "Sir, which
book? Which book?" The dying saint answered immediately, "My son, there is just
one Book. Bring me the Book." At once Lockhart went to the library and returned
with Sir Walter's Bible. Yes, there is but one Book!" Page 45 of 45

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/bibliolgy/canonicity.pdf
____________________________________

Request: Those of you with serious questions about the topic of "Canonicity" have presumably read the first two pages of Pastor-Teacher Wenstrom's exhaustive forty five page study posted in the thread. Will you please read the rest of this study?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"The Doctrine of Canonicity"

Although these early Church Fathers may seem rather ill prepared to hand down all the subtle implications of the Christian faith to the coming generations, they form a doctrinal link to the Apostles (and thus to our Lord Jesus Christ), as well as a witness to the growing commitment to the Canon of Scripture that wo ...[text shortened]... austive forty five page study posted in the thread. Will you please read the rest of this study?[/b]

You have found your latest guru.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"The Doctrine of Canonicity"

Although these early Church Fathers may seem rather ill prepared to hand down all the subtle implications of the Christian faith to the coming generations, they form a doctrinal link to the Apostles (and thus to our Lord Jesus Christ), as well as a witness to the growing commitment to the Canon of Scripture that wo austive forty five page study posted in the thread. Will you please read the rest of this study?

"Bible translations From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: This article is about the general history of Bible translations. For translations into specific languages, see Bible translations by language. The Bible has been translated into many languages from the biblical languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. As of November 2012 the full Bible has been translated into 518 languages, and 2,798 languages have at least some portion of the Bible. The Latin Vulgate was dominant in Western Christianity through the Middle Ages. Since then, the Bible has been translated into many more languages. English Bible translations also have a rich and varied history of more than a millennium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations