13 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI've participated in some very interesting debates lately. For example, a JW made an excellent Bible-based case against the idea of eternal damnation in Hell. This was certainly new to me and was thus anything but predictable.
Sounds as if your vision is becoming impaired or that you've lapsed into denial.
I submit that you are blaming others for your problem - boredom.
13 Apr 12
Originally posted by josephwI submit myself as an exception. I don't think I know all the answers, and I conceded two debates recently. There was also no problem staying on topic. Sure, some other people posted some other random stuff, but it was easy to ignore it.
Everyone thinks they know all the answers, and the inability to stay on topic.
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13 Apr 12
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"If you're bored, you're boring."
[b]What's the cause of this forum becoming predictable and dreary?
Any insights?
gb[/b]
Boring Lifespring adage, circa 1979.
Any Lifespringers out there?
There are no accidents.
There is no trying. There is only doing.
(Stolen from or by Yoda? Do or do not... there is no try.)
etc.
Kinda like EST with hugs, they said.
13 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwWell, perhaps you should speak for yourself. Like SwissGambit, I don't think I know all the answers either. I do however think that the quintessentially human ability to doubt is sometimes in short supply here. It doesn't inhibit good discussions, though. If you don't agree, perhaps it's an issue for you, rather than a problem with the degree to which exposure to fairly well considered and yet different ideas that's on offer here.
Everyone thinks they know all the answers, and the inability to stay on topic.
13 Apr 12
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOver time the characters on the forum - who are not very numerous nor probably representative - become predictable and clearly repeat similar lines of argument. That may be because they are boring or because you have been unable to make anything interesting out of the process. Or maybe it is just that you have got past the "saying hello" stage and you have no useful ideas about where to go next because you are not actually interested in them as people with quite different mind sets to yours.
[b]What's the cause of this forum becoming predictable and dreary?
Any insights?
gb[/b]
Sometimes, also, an argument is flogged to death and without a fresh injection of new thoughts is best abandoned. Again this most often happens because we enter the argument wanting a favourable outcome and get frustrated at our failure to convert the other to our opinion. If people refuse to accept our arguments, sometimes that is because they are a lot weaker than we want to admit or even to appreciate.
An alternative approach - one of many - might be to take an interest in what the other actually does believe and get them to clarify their opinions on topics of interest. It is curious that one can find a Jehovah's Witness on the forum, or that Jaywill can offer a pretty authoritative reading of the Bible on almost any topic at the drop of a hat and takes great trouble to do so to the best of his ability. Both are possibly certifiably insane in my private opinion, as they may have detected, but without their posts I would understand far less about their viewpoints and some of our debates have been fruitful.
In other words, while arguing your corner, give the other at least a decent space to counter with their opinion. You might learn something without either side changing their view. People are very diverse and it is interesting to hear what they have to say. I doubt if you will convince anyone of very much until you first learn to listen.
On a few topics, I have actually learned a lot. Partly because I have been motivated to go away and read stuff I would otherwise have ignored. Partly because it is more interesting to try out an argument for yourself than to simply accept it second hand. The process is educational in a way that quiet reading cannot match. Like the difference between reading a chess opening book and playing it over the board. Such a frustratingly huge difference you may agree.
The reference to a "Forum" is another clue. The Greeks had a view that it is part of being a good citizen to come to the forum and express your opinion. Otherwise, it is left to a minority to dominate the Forum. When I see some of the stuff argued here, I think it is important that at least one person argues the contrary view. For example, I am an atheist with all that implies and more, but I object to the prevalence of Islamophobia on the site and think it is harmful if not challenged. As a result I have also read a decent number of very interesting books on the topic, for which I am far richer.
Of course, if nearly eveyone on the forum is indeed a complete idiot, then I imagine they might fall down in wondrous admiration at my insightful posts, clearing away all their delusions. In time I will become a cult hero, transferring to prime time television and celebrity status. It might happen?
However, the Forum does often seem predictable and drab. Then it is time to play some chess.
13 Apr 12
Originally posted by karoly aczelIt is a mistake to discount their ill formed opinions as childish when they are gaining significant political weight, not least in the education systems of Britain and, far more so, in the US. Dawkins, for instance, has no reason to doubt the weight of scientific evidence behind evolutionary theory and in the context of a university lecture theatre could afford to dismiss as pig ignorant any student expressing confusion on the matter. It is not doubts about his science but anger and fear over the destructive and reactionary political impact of Christians that drives his public arguments.
Childish christians, for a start
While I enjoy Dawkins and admire much of his writing, I am not alone in doubting the efficacy of his style in public debate. The problem is to find a more effective one.
How sweet that we have tame Christians on this Forum prepared to allow us to practice safely what will become, in the political world, far more serious arguments. We need to test our arguments and select out those with most chances of success. And lets acknowledge that this forum spends more time arguing for or against than arguing within the Christian faith.
We are not trying to persuade ourselves remember. And our best chance of success is not to convince everyone of atheism, which will not happen, but to protect the secular values on which atheists and Christians can agree.
Then again I have days when I think to hell with it - Dawkins has it exactly right. Nuances and subtlety do not work. Depends on my mood.
13 Apr 12
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Originally posted by finneganEven the best interpretations of christianity are childish.
It is a mistake to discount their ill formed opinions as childish when they are gaining significant political weight, not least in the education systems of Britain and, far more so, in the US. Dawkins, for instance, has no reason to doubt the weight of scientific evidence behind evolutionary theory and in the context of a university lecture theatre could af ...[text shortened]... ll with it - Dawkins has it exactly right. Nuances and subtlety do not work. Depends on my mood.
Whether they gain strength in politics or not does not really concern me as my belief system instructs me not to pay attention to worldly politics. (which could be dangerous)
Having the Christians here is sweet, but sometimes I wish there were more of a balance.
I guess christians own the most pc's, (ie . amongst the worlds most populated religions , the christians are the most affluent ones)
13 Apr 12
Originally posted by finneganWell reasoned. Thanks.
Over time the characters on the forum - who are not very numerous nor probably representative - become predictable and clearly repeat similar lines of argument. That may be because they are boring or because you have been unable to make anything interesting out of the process. Or maybe it is just that you have got past the "saying hello" stage and you have ...[text shortened]... owever, the Forum does often seem predictable and drab. Then it is time to play some chess.