Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Happy as a clam, excited about each new day and relish my freedom. Reason: the hole in my soul has been filled to the brim and running over.

/sounds boring... (just kidding- i thought we were on the general forum because I was answering one of your posts)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Happy as a clam, excited about each new day and relish my freedom. Reason: the hole in my soul has been filled to the brim and running over.

there's the root of your problem. you believe there is a hole in your soul that needs filling.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I submit myself as an exception. I don't think I know all the answers, and I conceded two debates recently. There was also no problem staying on topic. Sure, some other people posted some other random stuff, but it was easy to ignore it.

It was a generalised statement and not meant to be taken personally. By its nature spirituality is highly subjective, so people naturally express their own views.

I think we would get further along if we could be more objective.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, perhaps you should speak for yourself. Like SwissGambit, I don't think I know all the answers either. I do however think that the quintessentially human ability to doubt is sometimes in short supply here. It doesn't inhibit good discussions, though. If you don't agree, perhaps it's an issue for you, rather than a problem with the degree to which exposure to fairly well considered and yet different ideas that's on offer here.

Doubt is the opposite of faith, and there is definitely no short supply of doubt expressed in this forum.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
there's the root of your problem. you believe there is a hole in your soul that needs filling.

That is a figure of speech in case you really didn't know.

Originally posted by josephw
It was a generalised statement and not meant to be taken personally. By its nature spirituality is highly subjective, so people naturally express their own views.

I think we would get further along if we could be more objective.

Don't worry, I wasn't offended by it. I just thought I would point out that things are not as bleak as they might seem.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Don't worry, I wasn't offended by it. I just thought I would point out that things are not as bleak as they might seem.

Indeed! Things spiritual should naturally be positive and uplifting.

If they are based in truth.

Originally posted by RJHinds
That is a figure of speech in case you really didn't know.

and my reply should be taken figuratively.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
and my reply should be taken figuratively.

The problem with that is that your reply is not a figure of speech.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
there's the root of your problem. you believe there is a hole in your soul that needs filling.

Within all human souls from birth. We all want and need to be loved and take unkindly to rejection: 'There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God.

If I believe in the risen Christ and it's just an artful falsehood, there is nothing to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain.' -Pascal (1623-1662)


Summary: His Grace/our gratitude. Sans Dieu Rien.

Originally posted by josephw
Doubt is the opposite of faith, and there is definitely [b]no short supply of doubt expressed in this forum.[/b]

Doubt is healthy and the human capacity for it is beneficial; it has underpinned much of our progress and our ability to reason, solve problems and find solutions.

For you to say "there is definitely no short supply of doubt expressed in this forum" directly contradicts what you said on page 1 of this thread: "Everyone thinks they know all the answers...".

I would say that you've fallen victim to your apparent tendency to simply reel off the first statement that comes off the top of your head, regardless of whether it makes much sense or whether it is compatible with something you reeled off earlier.

'Faith without doubt' is what made RJHinds and Dasa say that they would kill someone if they reckoned God had told them to do it; 'faith without doubt' clearly contributed to the 9/11 atrocity, spiritually and politically; 'faith without doubt' is what led to almost 1,000 people dying in Jonestown in 1978; the list of horrendous or tragic things that 'faith without doubt' has been responsible for would more or less be endless.

Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is an absolutely vital complement to faith if we are to retain our humanity.

Originally posted by FMF
Doubt is healthy and the human capacity for it is beneficial; it has underpinned much of our progress and our ability to reason, solve problems and find solutions.

For you to say "there is definitely no short supply of doubt expressed in this forum" directly contradicts what you said on page 1 of this thread: "Everyone thinks they know all the answers...".
...[text shortened]... th; it is an absolutely vital complement to faith if we are to retain our humanity.

Indeed. Honest doubt (ie, doubting Thomas) is nearly a cognitive requisite for a healthy perceptive process... and as much so in the spiritual

realm as in any other area of discernment in life. Key in my view is the desire to know the truth so as to be secure, tranquil and free.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Within all human souls from birth. We all want and need to be loved and take unkindly to rejection: 'There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God.

If I believe in the risen Christ and it's just an artful falsehood, there is nothing to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain.' -Pascal (1623-1662)


Summary: His Grace/our gratitude. Sans Dieu Rien.

Oh dear someone brought up Pascal again...

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/pascal.html

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_Wager

Have you not realised yet how much I enjoy obliterating this particularly idiotic argument?

Pascals wager applies a false dichotomy. (among other formal and informal fallacies and is based on false premises)

It assumes that there is a binary choice between Atheism (no belief) and belief in Christ (the Christian god)
and that those are the only options.

This unfortunately misses the thousands of other religions and gods that have been imagined (failure to worship
many of which results in going to that religions version of hell) and then there are all the potential god concepts
that have not yet been imagined. Of which there is a literally infinite supply.

And the problems are even worse because there IS something to lose by believing based on irrational blind faith.
Rationality and all the benefits that rationality brings.

As I have said before blind irrational faith is dangerous and really does cost lives, and blights others.



and this is even before you get to the part where there is evidence that the Christian mythology is not true.

Not least of which is the ever growing mountain of evidence that demonstrates that we are the product of the physical
workings of our brains and that we have no souls. (or spirit or life force or any other mystical thing you want to suppose
we have)

Without the existence of souls or spirit then there is no afterlife and/or no resurrection.

Your religion Is not by any means equally probable with atheism. It's not even equally probable as every other possible theist
and atheist position (of which there are an infinite number), it's inherently less probable than atheism and any hypothetical
religion that doesn't contradict the available evidence. In other words it's probability of being right is less than the infinitesimally small
probability it would have if we assumed that all options were equally likely.


Pascals wager is a logical fallacy and failed argument.


And has been so for centuries.

Originally posted by josephw
Doubt is the opposite of faith, and there is definitely [b]no short supply of doubt expressed in this forum.[/b]

I doubt that. 🙂

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Within all human souls from birth. We all want and need to be loved and take unkindly to rejection: 'There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God.

If I believe in the risen Christ and it's just an artful falsehood, there is nothing to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain.' -Pascal (1623-1662)


Summary: His Grace/our gratitude. Sans Dieu Rien.

As described by you this sounds more like a Mummy shaped hole and a reflection of the fact that humans are social animals. It is a matter of survival for each infant to quickly and securely obtain acceptance from others, being totally dependent for many years and incapable of autonomous life. Attachment Theory - derived from a lot of research initiatied by Bowlby - does suggest strongly that our personality is shaped by early nurturing experiences. The key questions are if we trust others to meet our needs and trust others to like us. This two factor matrix reappears in many contexts, especially psychotherapy including psychoanalysis and Transactional Analysis.

What religion does a lot, and in the past this had some justification, is to offer religious answers to human anxieties. Religion still preys on those who are unhappy. (No - not prays, but preys). Sadly, this is often done in the form of a controlling and authoritarian parent, emphasizing fear, rather than a nurturing and accepting one which would emphasize love, and that is said in prefect recognition of the paradox that Christianity claims to be a religion of love. Trouble is this is conditional love and people need unconditional love.

God is a fantasy onto which we project our ideal parent. He tells us a lot about ourselves as a species and little about anything transcendental.