Where are we now?

Originally posted by galveston75
We all have the opportunity to be saved by Jesus. But the Bible is clear that only if one remains faithful until the end, will they be saved. The end has not happened yet.

where exactly does it say that? because there are many scriptures that contradict that idea.

Originally posted by Doward
where exactly does it say that? because there are many scriptures that contradict that idea.

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (21st Century King James Version)
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Reader's Version)
12 Because evil will grow, most people's love will grow cold. 13 But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.


Just a few versions.

The Bible does not contradict itself ever. The problem is man taking a few scriptures and looking at them with face value and not using other scriptures such as this and trying to find how they all work together.
For instance ones believe that just believing in Jesuis is all it takes to be saved at the end.
But many scriptures show there has to be more or "works".

James 2:26 (New International Reader's Version)
26 The body without the spirit is dead. In the same way, faith without good works is dead.

One can have all the faith in the world, but without works it will do nothing for you.

Originally posted by galveston75
Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (21st Century King James Version)
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the en

One can have all the faith in the world, but without works it will do nothing for you.

Just a few versions.

That's just one verse, and poorly used I think. Jesus is talking about people who decide to worship the false Messiah, or anti-Christ. So I guess I am still puzzled by why you think people must endure and be unsure of salvation. Doesn't the New Testament (and prophecy from the old) clearly say salvation is promised?

John10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


no one can snatch us from Christ once we are his. If you do not believe you are saved then you have not heard his voice, and you are not his sheep. Don't you want to be one of Christ's sheep?

edit: you say the bible cannot contradict itself yes? then how do you answer Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

God's word clearly says that salvation is by Grace and not works. Though I will stipulate that Christians are expected to labor in the kingdom of God, it is after their salvation and not before.

Originally posted by Doward
Just a few versions.

That's just one verse, and poorly used I think. Jesus is talking about people who decide to worship the false Messiah, or anti-Christ. So I guess I am still puzzled by why you think people must endure and be unsure of salvation. Doesn't the New Testament (and prophecy from the old) clearly say salvation is promised?

John10:2 ...[text shortened]... ns are expected to labor in the kingdom of God, it is after their salvation and not before.

Unless you who lump yourselves together with the Little Flock can ever differentiate who Jesus was talking to then you'll never apply these scriptures correctly. He was speaking only to the chosen ones, the ones who would be bought from the earth to rule with him as Kings and Judges, the "Little Flock." They will be given immortatlity. Thus that scripture would apply only to them.
The vast majority of mankind or the "Great Crowd" are not included in these words by Jesus. They are never given immortality just as Adam and Eve were never given that special gift. We will have the chance to live forever on this earth but with the same conditions that Adam & Eve were under. We have to obey God or that opportunity can be taken away from us.
So until you and others who still get those scriptures wrong and see who they apply to you'll never understand what these scriptures mean and you will always think the Bible is contradicting itself.

Originally posted by galveston75
Unless you who lump yourselves together with the Little Flock can ever differentiate who Jesus was talking to then you'll never apply these scriptures correctly. He was speaking only to the chosen ones, the ones who would be bought from the earth to rule with him as Kings and Judges, the "Little Flock." They will be given immortatlity. Thus that scriptur ...[text shortened]... nd what these scriptures mean and you will always think the Bible is contradicting itself.

Unless you who lump yourselves together with the Little Flock can ever differentiate who Jesus was talking to then you'll never apply these scriptures correctly. He was speaking only to the chosen ones, the ones who would be bought from the earth to rule with him as Kings and Judges, the "Little Flock."

I'm sorry, but I think I'm missing something here. How do we know Jesus was talking about this "little flock" you speak of? There seems to be no indicator in this passage that he is saying anything other than what he is saying. Where does this idea of "little flock come from? And, how can you be sure that is what he means?

Since you didn't bother to refute my Ephesians scripture then I will assume you agree that salvation is based on Grace through faith and not by works.

Originally posted by galveston75
Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (21st Century King James Version)
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the en

One can have all the faith in the world, but without works it will do nothing for you.

=====================================
Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (21st Century King James Version)
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Reader's Version)
12 Because evil will grow, most people's love will grow cold. 13 But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
==========================================

The word "saved" and "salvation" can take on different meanings in the New Testament.

Take for instance "saved" in First Timothy 2:15:

"And Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been quite deceived, has fallen into transgression.

But she will be saved through her childbearing, if they remain in faith and love and holiness with sobriety."


Would you advocate here that being saved is only a possibility to women who have and bear children ? I mean it says "saved through her childbearing".

Do you teach your female members down at the Kingdon Hall that only those who have had children will be saved ?


There are other instances of the usage of "saved" which merit us to consider context and scope of such saving. And Matthew 24:12-13 is suspect to considering context.

Your interpretation that Christ was teaching eternal redemption through endurance in tribulation is highly questionable.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (21st Century King James Version)
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ...[text shortened]... [b]eternal redemption through endurance in tribulation is highly questionable.[/b]

No I'm not agreeing with you at all. No matter how much ones that believe they are saved NOW from faith alone does not work at all in the Bible.

James 2:26 (American Standard Version)
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
Do you notice the word "Works" here?

John 6:27 (New International Version, ©2010)
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Do you notice the word " Work" here?


John 9:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
Do you see the word " Work" here too?

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.
How about here?


Titus 2:14 (Wycliffe New Testament)
14 that gave himself for us, to again-buy us from all wickedness [that he should again-buy us from all wickedness], and make clean to himself a people acceptable, and follower of good works.
??????? Seeing a pattern here yet?

Hebrews 10:24 (American Standard Version)
24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;


If you were to understand what the 2 parables that Jesus spoke of in Matt 25th chapters concerning who the Faithful and Discreet Slave is then you would start to see that they have a work to do with the things Jesus taught them. Some of them did not do this work but hid the message of the Good News of the Kingdom that Jesus spoke of in Matt the 24th & 28th chapters.

So the point that is being missed here is professing Faith in Jesus and the Kingdom is only the first step. Now the work of teaching that to the entire world is the work that the Faithful and Discreet Slave is in charge of doing earthwide. If the just profess their faith in Jesus but do no work then there is no slavation and Jesus will deny you.

If just professing ones Faith and love for Jesus is all it takes, then why doesn't the Bible say so and leave it at that? Why all these other scriptures as well as many more I did not quote say differently? If being saved is so simply and what Jesus really meant, then why are any that are saved NOW still on this earth? Why would God keep you here to suffer with all this suffering that we all go thru daily on this planet? That would seem to be unloving on his part.
And the Bible is clear that ones that are going to heaven and will be saved and given eternal life will have a job to do there. No sitting on some cloud and playing music but a serious assignment of being Kings and Judges over the earth.
When I ask ones who say "Yeah..I'm going to heaven because I'm saved" what are you going to do when you get there, they never have a clue what they'll be doing when the arrive. But the Bible says the 144,000 sure know.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13 (21st Century King James Version)
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ...[text shortened]... [b]eternal redemption through endurance in tribulation is highly questionable.[/b]

I'm not even going to answer that about women....Silly question.

The sad part is all you religious types obsessing about a 2000+ year old book and you forget to actually live a life. Like monks who get swallowed up in a monastery and whatever talents they had are lost to the world. When the last human is driven to extinction there will be no god to magically rescue all those sinners and non-sinners as you define them.

I think you all unutterably arrogant to think some kind of god would go to all the trouble to create a universe that is only 6000 years old just to fool us into believing it is really 14 billion years old and so forth, and Jesus came from a virgin.

Sad, sad, sad.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The sad part is all you religious types obsessing about a 2000+ year old book and you forget to actually live a life. Like monks who get swallowed up in a monastery and whatever talents they had are lost to the world. When the last human is driven to extinction there will be no god to magically rescue all those sinners and non-sinners as you define them.
...[text shortened]... it is really 14 billion years old and so forth, and Jesus came from a virgin.

Sad, sad, sad.

what about those persons whose religious convictions really help them? which gives them a sense of self and purpose, that has helped them overcome all manner of unforeseen or unfavourable circumstances and in some cases trauma? what shall you say to them? get a life? you may of course disagree with the details, but everyone needs to fill their lives with something, what is the alternative, an impotent atheistic god, shall we do obeisance to science? the panacea for all? why should we limit ourselves to materialism and mindless matter, will it make us happier more fulfilled individuals? if the adherence to and application of religious principles doesn't make you happy, why should it mean the same for others?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what about those persons whose religious convictions really help them? which gives them a sense of self and purpose, that has helped them overcome all manner of unforeseen or unfavourable circumstances and in some cases trauma? what shall you say to them? get a life? you may of course disagree with the details, but everyone needs to fill their liv ...[text shortened]... ication of religious principles doesn't make you happy, why should it mean the same for others?

Well said.

Originally posted by galveston75
No I'm not agreeing with you at all. No matter how much ones that believe they are saved NOW from faith alone does not work at all in the Bible.

James 2:26 (American Standard Version)
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
Do you notice the word "Works" here?

John 6:27 (New International Versi ...[text shortened]... ue what they'll be doing when the arrive. But the Bible says the 144,000 sure know.

if faith without works is dead, then it is the faith itself that is dead, likewise works without faith are dead. There are many well meaning athiests who do charitable works, they assuredly are not part of the kingdom of God. I think you greatly misunderstand that passage. It means simply that those who have faith will exhinit works. As in by their fruits ye shall know them.

Originally posted by Doward
if faith without works is dead, then it is the faith itself that is dead, likewise works without faith are dead. There are many well meaning athiests who do charitable works, they assuredly are not part of the kingdom of God. I think you greatly misunderstand that passage. It means simply that those who have faith will exhinit works. As in by their fruits ye shall know them.

Faith without works is dead according to these scriptures. And sure some exhibit works but what are the works Jesus said by mouth to do and in his examples as well as the Apostles? They are the ones to follow because unfortunently not many religions do.
As Jesus said there would be many that have Faith " but would prove false to it's power."
And part of this power would be used in the life saving work that Jesus demonstrated and commanded us all to do. Matt 24th & 28th chapters.

Originally posted by galveston75
Faith without works is dead according to these scriptures. And sure some exhibit works but what are the works Jesus said by mouth to do and in his examples as well as the Apostles? They are the ones to follow because unfortunently not many religions do.
As Jesus said there would be many that have Faith " but would prove false to it's power."
And pa ...[text shortened]... fe saving work that Jesus demonstrated and commanded us all to do. Matt 24th & 28th chapters.

yet still you have not proven salvation by works. Ephesians 2 clearly disagrees with your viewpoint or take on the James reading. It is consitent with my point, that works are the outward showing of the transformation called salvation by grace.

The works are done because of the inward transformation but the works in and of themselves do not save. A totally heathen can do the works but does that alone save?



Manny