Where did Moses write about Jesus?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Sorry for being so opaque, but... "the seed of the woman," begins the many shadows of the Person who became flesh.

What's "the seed of the woman" and did Moses write it?

You are indeed being opaque. Why? Are you unable to communicate clearly?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
What's "the seed of the woman" and did Moses write it?

You are indeed being opaque. Why? Are you unable to communicate clearly?

You lack the Secret Decoder Ring necessary to understand, you poor heathen.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
You are indeed being opaque. Why? Are you unable to communicate clearly?

Being vague and mysterious is what allows prophecy buffs to make their claim of Jesus: Foretold, silly boy. Have a cookie.

Originally posted by vistesd
Yeah, my brain’s tired too. I’m going to take a break for awhile, but didn’t just want to leave you hanging...

Those Jews who still believe in a “personal” messiah, don’t think it was Jesus, but someone yet to appear. Others have totally reworked their understanding of what messiah means. Prophecy is also a knotty subject. If you don’t accept the NT, ...[text shortened]... —does not generally insist on a “one right reading” ); that would be condescending...

Shalom

can you perhaps give verses that they base these viewpoints upon?

also-were the jews not looking for a messiah that would redeem them? for instance, the first thing Andrew (the disciple) did after hearing Jesus for the first time was to tell his brother, Simon Peter, that he had "'found the Messiah' (that is, the Christ)."

isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

and isaiah 11 also talks about a specific person. who, if not Jesus, do they refer too?

Originally posted by genius
can you perhaps give verses that they base these viewpoints upon?

also-were the jews not looking for a messiah that would redeem them? for instance, the first thing Andrew (the disciple) did after hearing Jesus for the first time was to tell his brother, Simon Peter, that he had "'found the Messiah' (that is, the Christ)."

isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the L ...[text shortened]...

and isaiah 11 also talks about a specific person. who, if not Jesus, do they refer too?

They read the same verses you do, only not the same way. Rabbinical Judaism also has an oral tradition (the oral Torah), that most Christians have no familiarity with. You’re going to have to do some of your own research on this, but you might take a closer look at the various Jewish opinions I gave above (some of which indicate why they don’t think Jesus fits the bill).

There were a number of Jewish groups in the first century; not all of whom were messianic (though messianism seems to grow in hard and turbulent times). Those who followed Jesus were; others weren’t. (Judaism is not monolithic today, either.)

Estimated Jewish population in Judea-Galilee at the time Jesus lived is about 700,000--with an additional 4 million or so scattered about the Roman world. The vast majority did not know that Jesus even existed. A small handful who did know thought he was the messiah--not necessarily based on the HS, but on miracles and ultimately, according to the stories, his resurrection (which a majority of Jews also did not hear of at the time--the gospel resurrection stories were written much later, though Paul was earlier--and those who did hear did not think it was true).

As for Isaiah 7:14—the Hebrew does not say “virgin;” it says almah, which means a young woman. There are at least three words in Hebrew bearing on this question:

(1) b’tulah, which can mean a chaste maiden, a virgin or a bride.

(2) na’ara, which means girl or maid (apparently younger than almah, below).

(3) almah, which means maiden, young woman or young marriageable woman. It is this latter term that is used in Isaiah 7:14—

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.” This is the NRSV translation; KJV translates both words as “virgin,” and appears to translate na’ara as “damsel.”

and isaiah 11 also talks about a specific person. who, if not Jesus, do they refer too?

The simple answer is, someone who hasn’t arrived yet. Note the quotes I gave previously by Buber, ben Chorin and Scholem—the conditions outlined in chapter 11 are not present in the world. Also, much Biblical language is highly metaphorical, and even nations (such as Israel) are often spoken of in singular-personal terms.

My only point is that there are reasonable arguments on the Jewish side, not simply unreasonable stubbornness. There are very bright, honest people on both sides who have spent their lives studying this stuff--and they disagree, hopefully respectfully.

EDIT: BTW, I do not accept that the burden of proof for this whole question lies solely with the Jews.

Originally posted by vistesd
As for Isaiah 7:14—the Hebrew does not say “virgin;” it says almah, which means a young woman. There are at least three words in Hebrew bearing on this question:

(1) b’tulah, which can mean a chaste maiden, a virgin or a bride.

(2) na’ara, which means girl or maid (apparently younger than almah, below).

(3) almah ...[text shortened]... ion; KJV translates both words as “virgin,” and appears to translate na’ara as “damsel.”

but it does says Immanuel. God with us.

Originally posted by genius
but it does says Immanuel. God with us.

Jesus was not named Immanuel. The only time that name occurs in the NT is in Matthew 1:23, in a direct quote from the Isaiah verse (although from the Greek Septuagint, not the Hebrew text).

Look, you can proof-text all you want. My assertion is that's exactly what the NT writers were doing. Let me say again: I give the NT no revelatory authority whatsoever. That in itself seems to put us at impasse. I have no problem with that, since I have no intention of dissuading you from your religion.

If you want to study Judaism just to understand it, read the books I mentioned. Then maybe we can talk...

EDIT: Look, I think you are a sincere individual, but you seem to think that the truth of Christianity is so obviously, simply and crystal clear that only someone who is ignorant or perverse could see it otherwise--or at least that the burden of proof is obviously on the non-Christian. Now there are Christians on here (checkbaiter, Freaky, lucifershammer come to mind—anyone I have forgotten should not feel thereby excluded 🙂 )who have very deep and developed theologies based on scriptural exegesis and church tradition. I disagree with them—and we have had some wonderful debates. You might want to talk to some of them. I’m afraid that if we continue this, I will do you more harm than good.

Well what do you expect the Jews to say? They did kill Jesus after all! Plus they start all the wars in the world!

Mel

Originally posted by no1marauder
Well what do you expect the Jews to say? They did kill Jesus after all! Plus they start all the wars in the world!

Mel

i think you mean, "They did kill the son of God after all". they know they killed Jesus...

Originally posted by genius
i think you mean, "They did kill the son of God after all". they know they killed Jesus...

Thanks for the clarification; yes, that's exactly what I meant to say.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Thanks for the clarification; yes, that's exactly what I meant to say.

And here I thought it was the Italians. But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.

Actually, they all kept yelling for Jesus, but since Barrabas’ name was Jesus too, it all go too confusing—just like in that wonderful documentary “The Life of Bwyan.”

Mel, you beat me down.... I confess: it was my great-great-great-something uncle Morty. We found the note in the attic—it said: “I did it. I killed Christ.” Signed, “Morty.” (Apologies to Lenny Bruce.)

😞

EDIT: Thanks, Mel, I needed that... 🙂

Originally posted by vistesd
And here I thought it was the Italians.

What does supercessionism actually mean?

Originally posted by vistesd
And here I thought it was the Italians. But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.

Actually, they all kept yelling for Jesus, but since Barrabas’ name was Jesus too, i ...[text shortened]... Signed, “Morty.” (Apologies to Lenny Bruce.)

😞

EDIT: Thanks, Mel, I needed that... 🙂

V: But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.


Admission must have been free then.

Originally posted by vistesd
And here I thought it was the Italians. But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.

Actually, they all kept yelling for Jesus, but since Barrabas’ name was Jesus too, i ...[text shortened]... Signed, “Morty.” (Apologies to Lenny Bruce.)

😞

EDIT: Thanks, Mel, I needed that... 🙂

if it wasn't for the chief priests he wouldn't have been standing there Also, it was the people that wanted him crucified (backed up by the priests, according to john) not pilate.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Admission must have been free then.

Yes, but they made a killing on the parking. At a shekel per donkey, Herod was raking it in.