Originally posted by vistesdcan you perhaps give verses that they base these viewpoints upon?
Yeah, my brain’s tired too. I’m going to take a break for awhile, but didn’t just want to leave you hanging...
Those Jews who still believe in a “personal” messiah, don’t think it was Jesus, but someone yet to appear. Others have totally reworked their understanding of what messiah means. Prophecy is also a knotty subject. If you don’t accept the NT, ...[text shortened]... —does not generally insist on a “one right reading” ); that would be condescending...
Shalom
also-were the jews not looking for a messiah that would redeem them? for instance, the first thing Andrew (the disciple) did after hearing Jesus for the first time was to tell his brother, Simon Peter, that he had "'found the Messiah' (that is, the Christ)."
isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
and isaiah 11 also talks about a specific person. who, if not Jesus, do they refer too?
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Originally posted by geniusThey read the same verses you do, only not the same way. Rabbinical Judaism also has an oral tradition (the oral Torah), that most Christians have no familiarity with. You’re going to have to do some of your own research on this, but you might take a closer look at the various Jewish opinions I gave above (some of which indicate why they don’t think Jesus fits the bill).
can you perhaps give verses that they base these viewpoints upon?
also-were the jews not looking for a messiah that would redeem them? for instance, the first thing Andrew (the disciple) did after hearing Jesus for the first time was to tell his brother, Simon Peter, that he had "'found the Messiah' (that is, the Christ)."
isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the L ...[text shortened]...
and isaiah 11 also talks about a specific person. who, if not Jesus, do they refer too?
There were a number of Jewish groups in the first century; not all of whom were messianic (though messianism seems to grow in hard and turbulent times). Those who followed Jesus were; others weren’t. (Judaism is not monolithic today, either.)
Estimated Jewish population in Judea-Galilee at the time Jesus lived is about 700,000--with an additional 4 million or so scattered about the Roman world. The vast majority did not know that Jesus even existed. A small handful who did know thought he was the messiah--not necessarily based on the HS, but on miracles and ultimately, according to the stories, his resurrection (which a majority of Jews also did not hear of at the time--the gospel resurrection stories were written much later, though Paul was earlier--and those who did hear did not think it was true).
As for Isaiah 7:14—the Hebrew does not say “virgin;” it says almah, which means a young woman. There are at least three words in Hebrew bearing on this question:
(1) b’tulah, which can mean a chaste maiden, a virgin or a bride.
(2) na’ara, which means girl or maid (apparently younger than almah, below).
(3) almah, which means maiden, young woman or young marriageable woman. It is this latter term that is used in Isaiah 7:14—
“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.” This is the NRSV translation; KJV translates both words as “virgin,” and appears to translate na’ara as “damsel.”
and isaiah 11 also talks about a specific person. who, if not Jesus, do they refer too?
The simple answer is, someone who hasn’t arrived yet. Note the quotes I gave previously by Buber, ben Chorin and Scholem—the conditions outlined in chapter 11 are not present in the world. Also, much Biblical language is highly metaphorical, and even nations (such as Israel) are often spoken of in singular-personal terms.
My only point is that there are reasonable arguments on the Jewish side, not simply unreasonable stubbornness. There are very bright, honest people on both sides who have spent their lives studying this stuff--and they disagree, hopefully respectfully.
EDIT: BTW, I do not accept that the burden of proof for this whole question lies solely with the Jews.
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Originally posted by vistesdbut it does says Immanuel. God with us.
As for Isaiah 7:14—the Hebrew does not say “virgin;” it says almah, which means a young woman. There are at least three words in Hebrew bearing on this question:
(1) b’tulah, which can mean a chaste maiden, a virgin or a bride.
(2) na’ara, which means girl or maid (apparently younger than almah, below).
(3) almah ...[text shortened]... ion; KJV translates both words as “virgin,” and appears to translate na’ara as “damsel.”
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Originally posted by geniusJesus was not named Immanuel. The only time that name occurs in the NT is in Matthew 1:23, in a direct quote from the Isaiah verse (although from the Greek Septuagint, not the Hebrew text).
but it does says Immanuel. God with us.
Look, you can proof-text all you want. My assertion is that's exactly what the NT writers were doing. Let me say again: I give the NT no revelatory authority whatsoever. That in itself seems to put us at impasse. I have no problem with that, since I have no intention of dissuading you from your religion.
If you want to study Judaism just to understand it, read the books I mentioned. Then maybe we can talk...
EDIT: Look, I think you are a sincere individual, but you seem to think that the truth of Christianity is so obviously, simply and crystal clear that only someone who is ignorant or perverse could see it otherwise--or at least that the burden of proof is obviously on the non-Christian. Now there are Christians on here (checkbaiter, Freaky, lucifershammer come to mind—anyone I have forgotten should not feel thereby excluded 🙂 )who have very deep and developed theologies based on scriptural exegesis and church tradition. I disagree with them—and we have had some wonderful debates. You might want to talk to some of them. I’m afraid that if we continue this, I will do you more harm than good.
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Originally posted by no1marauderAnd here I thought it was the Italians. But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.
Thanks for the clarification; yes, that's exactly what I meant to say.
Actually, they all kept yelling for Jesus, but since Barrabas’ name was Jesus too, it all go too confusing—just like in that wonderful documentary “The Life of Bwyan.”
Mel, you beat me down.... I confess: it was my great-great-great-something uncle Morty. We found the note in the attic—it said: “I did it. I killed Christ.” Signed, “Morty.” (Apologies to Lenny Bruce.)
😞
EDIT: Thanks, Mel, I needed that... 🙂
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Originally posted by vistesdV: But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.
And here I thought it was the Italians. But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.
Actually, they all kept yelling for Jesus, but since Barrabas’ name was Jesus too, i ...[text shortened]... Signed, “Morty.” (Apologies to Lenny Bruce.)
😞
EDIT: Thanks, Mel, I needed that... 🙂
Admission must have been free then.
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Originally posted by vistesdif it wasn't for the chief priests he wouldn't have been standing there Also, it was the people that wanted him crucified (backed up by the priests, according to john) not pilate.
And here I thought it was the Italians. But nope, all 700,000 Jews of Judeo-Galilee gathered there in Pilate's super-super-stadium-sized courtyard—and the 4 million Jews of the diaspora, every single one of them having heard of J via carrier pigeon, they showed up too.
Actually, they all kept yelling for Jesus, but since Barrabas’ name was Jesus too, i ...[text shortened]... Signed, “Morty.” (Apologies to Lenny Bruce.)
😞
EDIT: Thanks, Mel, I needed that... 🙂
