where is he...?????????????????????

Originally posted by eatmybishop
sorry, i must be confused, how do you know he hasnt forgotton us...? are you religious, do you believe in god, do you follow the christian path? strange if you do, as you seemed to have judged me.... let me see... phony, liar... yet you've never met me.... the word hypocrite does spring to mind when an american calls someone else a phony

don'ybesorry youcan'thelpbeingconfused,it'scomesalongwithbeingstupid.
ifyouaren'tabouta12yroldtrolli'veneverseenone

Originally posted by Lord Leto
You are relly missing the point,you are far away with a few lightyears .I never sayd anithing about not trying to find out how things are worcking or how miracles are.If God exists his happy to know that we are geting smarter ,more inteligent,He can be prowd of us.My opinion is that if He created the universe He left us some laws to folow ,and I am not ref ...[text shortened]... ce.Science and religion never contradict eachother in esence(not refering to the Bible storyes).

Things were going really good until here, then it started going south. Can we get back to the discussion. please?

I like the idea of science and religion not contradicting each other.

Originally posted by Varqa
You must forgive IAI. He is with the Iraqi resistance. When they can't win, they resort to diversionary tactics, like blowing up women and children.

LOL!

jammer... if you dont have anything consrtuctive to say then why say it?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
I wonder, whodey, all these big big stuff that God's been doing: parting seas, flooding the world and killing people etc, participating in our lives? Yet there is still a fair number of people who don't believe in his existence.

What is so wrong for God to be direct and simple; why can't he simply appear before us to prove his existence? Surely that is v l come to love him or obey him. But at least we will believe in his existence to start with?

I think it is because God has no interest in "proving" himself. What did it get him when he "proved" himself by parting seas, flooding the world etc.? Adam and Eve knew God existed yet they lost faith as they partook of the fruit. The children of Israel knew he existed yet they lost faith and built a golden calf to worship instead. Christ came and healed the sick and raised the dead yet all forsook him when he went to the cross.

You see a faith based relationship is the ONLY possible scenerio between God and his creation. This is because God is greater than his creation thus his creation is incapable of a relationship on equal footing. God sees and knows all and his creation sees and knows only in part. Therefore, his creation must depend upon the one who sees all or walk blindly into walls at various times or even over a cliff. This is why God desires and even demands faith. We must first pass this test if we are to proceede and further with him.

You might say that if one knows that God exists perhaps they might have a better chance to place their faith in him, and I have often questioned this myself. It reminds me of a story in the Bible of a man who died and was a lost soul. He then pleaded to come back from the dead to warn his family not go down the same path as he walked so that they would not encounter a similair fate. His answer was that they have God's word and the prophets. If they will not recieve them they will not recieve his warning. So lets assume he did come back from the dead, what would be the response? What would your response be? What would a physicians or scientists response be? I suspect that his very return from the dead would be questioned. Was he really dead to begin with? Did he really see and hear what he thought he saw and heard or was it all just chemical reactions gone awry in a dying mans brain? Who knows, they might even convince the man that it never happened to begin with. You see anything can be reasoned away. It all depends on what you want the truth to be. To be fair, however, the religious are guilty of the same. Any reality can be reasoned away by giving them a supernatural origin just as any reality can be reasoned away by giving it a naturalistic origin.

This leads me to what I think faith is all about. Faith has to do with what the desires of your heart is. For example, lets assume God's word is the truth for a second. If you read God's word and recognize it as the truth, it stands to reason that you desire this truth and you will then recieve the truth as a result. However, if hear God's word and you do not recieve it as the truth it is because you do not desire these truths he has revealed and therfore you reject it. Usually this rejection of God's word is a result of loving or desiring something more than the truths God has laid before you. Faith can therefore be seen as an extension of free will. Faith is merely desiring the truth that has been laid before you and agreeing with it so that God can work through you as opposed to being in disagreement with God's word thus going down a different path in which God cannot be apart.

In conclusion, faith has more to do with the condition of your heart and what you desire more than the mentally proving things do or do not exist. If your heart is not right, you will loose faith whether it is not believing God exists or whether it is a result of biting into that tempting fruit that you were warned not to eat. Either action results in the same condition which is to sin. It all boils down to what you love the most, this is the road you will take, it has little to do with proving anything exists or does not exist.

Originally posted by whodey
I think it is because God has no interest in "proving" himself. What did it get him when he "proved" himself by parting seas, flooding the world etc.? Adam and Eve knew God existed yet they lost faith as they partook of the fruit. The children of Israel knew he existed yet they lost faith and built a golden calf to worship instead. Christ came and healed ...[text shortened]... oad you will take, it has little to do with proving anything exists or does not exist.

Again an interesting answer from you, which I think is quite a departure from the norm. In trying to understand God, I would put myself in his shoes and see how I would act in a particular circumstance.

I think if I want so much for people to be aware of my existence, I will be very interested to "prove" my existence by whatever means within my power. If I expect my subjects to be deligent in searching for me, then I should equally be deligent in proving myself to them. If I have indeed proven my existence several thousand years ago by parting seas, or toying around with 2 jokers who were tricked by a snake; that does not qualify for the word 'deligent'. If we are to continue believing in Him one generation after another, then he should also continue proving himself to us one gereration after another.

I am sure God is aware that many of us would want tangible evidence of his existence before we can believe. By telling these people that God parted the sea; or took a rib from one human to make another human thousands of years ago without tangible evidence, and then expect them to accept that as the truth, is unfair. If, as you said, even Adam and Eve who allegedly had full knowledge of God's existence could reject Him, then it should come as no surprise that many of us who have even lesser knowledge would accept Him.

Faith is a funny thing. Exactly what does it mean? If my 4-year-old girl is a hard-working and reasonably clever child, I might say that I have faith that she will outdo all the kids in school some day. I don't know for certain that she will ever outdo those other kids though. But I do have the faith that she will! You may ask me why. And I will tell you that I have faith because of certain quality such as hard-working nature, or being able to read from A to Z at age 2.

Now if I were to apply the same approach on God, how do I go about it? I will also look at his qualities. Unfortunately, because God is not interested to "prove" himself, I could only try to get a glimpse of Him through the holy books of the many religions. And here I immediately get into trouble.

The quality of the God found in the bible, for example, does not seem to merit any respect. He created 2 dumb humans and put an apple tree, the fruits of which he knews very well would tempt these dumbos. When these people failed in their test, they were punished. I think in law, there is a special term for it -- entrapment. This so-called testing of loyalty did not stop there. At one time he ordered another joker to sacrifice his own son. And this stupid guy actually almost did it! The God of the bible could also lose His temper and go on a killing spree. And the killing spree went beyond the sinners; it affected the innocents too. Maybe God had a very good reason for his acts, but without any hope of getting an explanation, I find it very difficult to have any faith on such a being.

However, as far as his existence is concerned, I believe that he exist. Or at least he existed in the past. Whether or not he is still alive now is quite another matter altogether.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Again an interesting answer from you, which I think is quite a departure from the norm. In trying to understand God, I would put myself in his shoes and see how I would act in a particular circumstance.

I think if I want so much for people to be aware of my existence, I will be very interested to "prove" my existence by whatever means within my power. I ...[text shortened]... ed in the past. Whether or not he is still alive now is quite another matter altogether.

You can't see the forest from the trees!

Romans 1:20,21
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they new God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Originally posted by whodey
I think it is because God has no interest in "proving" himself. What did it get him when he "proved" himself by parting seas, flooding the world etc.? Adam and Eve knew God existed yet they lost faith as they partook of the fruit. The children of Israel knew he existed yet they lost faith and built a golden calf to worship instead. Christ came and healed ...[text shortened]... oad you will take, it has little to do with proving anything exists or does not exist.

Whose heart is not right: Those who seek a coherent belief system without contradictions or philosophical problems, or Those who worship a God who callously sentences billions of people to hell?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Whose heart is not right: Those who seek a coherent belief system without contradictions or philosophical problems, or Those who worship a God who callously sentences billions of people to hell?

Whose heart is right: Those that seeks God with all their heart and find him, or those that refuse to bow their knee to Him and continue to try and understand Him who is far too great for their limited understanding?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Whose heart is right: Those that seeks God with all their heart and find him, or those that refuse to bow their knee to Him and continue to try and understand Him who is far too great for their limited understanding?

You question is only appropriate if one accepts a philosophically flawed God to worship in the first place. I have no need of such a worn-out, tattered, security blanket.

Originally posted by dj2becker
........and continue to try and understand Him who is far too great for their limited understanding?

Maybe I am not a very clever person. Maybe God is just too difficult to understand due to my limited mental capacity. So is that what this is all about? Will I eventually end up in hell because I am just too stupid to understand God and his peculiar ways in dealing with us?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Maybe I am not a very clever person. Maybe God is just too difficult to understand due to my limited mental capacity. So is that what this is all about? Will I eventually end up in hell because I am just too stupid to understand God and his peculiar ways in dealing with us?

You're becoming a cynic ckoh! Nice to see these forums are making you ask more questions about your faith than answering them.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You question is only appropriate if one accepts a philosophically flawed God to worship in the first place. I have no need of such a worn-out, tattered, security blanket.

This would be hard to prove if worship is God or not, however worship among things like medication(opps meditation) etc can be proven to show effects on the brain. Things like this can be used by those running societies to conform under their own order and persective of life.. taking away the freedom that God gives.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You're becoming a cynic ckoh! Nice to see these forums are making you ask more questions about your faith than answering them.

Well, I can't help it. What was said by these people provokes such questions. Since they seem to know all, I guess I might as well take advantage to find out what I don't know.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Maybe I am not a very clever person. Maybe God is just too difficult to understand due to my limited mental capacity. So is that what this is all about? Will I eventually end up in hell because I am just too stupid to understand God and his peculiar ways in dealing with us?

Didn't you know? You're supposed to check your critical thinking at the church door. Just choose to believe, and God will wash your skepticism away. 🙄