1. Unknown Territories
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    10 Feb '06 14:35
    Exodus 21:22-25

    “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage [yatsa, her child “comes forth”], yet there is no further [not present in the Hebrew] injury [to mother or child who is born], he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.”

    “But if there is any further [not present in the Hebrew] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life [capital punishment], eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”

    Lex Talionis, the law of retaliation, was a standard feature in Ancient Near Eastern legal codes. Any injury or death to an individual by another person would be repaid to the offender in kind. The Mosaic Law is the epitome of Ancient Near Eastern legal codes, and this passage is an example of retaliatory law. To accurately understand the legal implications of this passage, there needs to be an understanding of the difference between the biological life and human life.
    Yatsa provides the key in understanding the scope and aim of the judicial retribution. Yatsa is rendered “miscarriage” in some translations of the Bible, but it literally means “come forth” or “go out.” When the fetus emerges or goes out from the womb, yatsa is describing birth. When so used, yatsa is equivalent to mibeten, “out from the womb.”
    The premature birth described here was caused by two men fighting who strike a woman so that she goes into labor and delivers. The assumption of the statute is that the mother survives the ordeal, and that the child is born alive, a living, ensouled human being. There is no supposition of human life present in the womb. The law applies only to the child after birth. The child must receive soul life at birth before in can be legally injured or die.
    Once the child is born and has received the “breath of life” from God, the law offers two potions for retaliation. The first option requires the one who struck the woman to pay a fine “as the husband may demand” and “as the judges decide.” Since there is no significant damage to the mother or the now living child other than the rigors of premature birth or some minor injury, a fine is all the law demands or allows.
    The second retaliation option described in this passage depends upon the extent of the injury to either the mother or the living child after birth. A less than mortal injury to either the mother or child or both would receive the recompense of an “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” The death sentence, “life for life,” may be rule as punishment only if the fighting men cause a mortal injury to the mother or child.
    The blow was struck while the fetus was still in the womb. This caused the woman to go into labor. Damage to the fetus could have occurred from the impact, and the pregnancy could have terminated from the shock of the blow. But Lex Talionis in this context is clearly applied to a time after birth. The law does not address the fetus in the womb. The fetus is biological life only and not an issue before the law. No punishment or compensations pronounced on the offending party for injury to the fetus in the womb or for a stillborn child.
    The principle of protection and care of biological life in the womb is always a concern because the fetus is a potential person. But Moses, the human author, does not include any legal contingency concerning the fetus. The child must be born and receive the breath of life before restitution or retribution is exacted. If stillborn, there can be no restitution demanded. However, either restitution or retribution may be demanded for the mother. The law of retaliation was written for the protection of living human beings, not biological life in the womb. This passage does not support human life within the womb.

    From the moment of birth you are destined for death, eternal separation from God. From the moment of the second birth you are destined to live for eternity with God. Once you have been given a human life, the decision is yours: eternal condemnation or eternal life.
    The soul is immortal. Man cannot create immortality. The egg and sperm cannot generate immortality in the womb as a result of conception. Mortals can only generate biological life, perpetuate spiritual death, and ultimately succumb to physical death. Only eternal God can create the immortal soul and impart it to the fetus at birth. Mortality cannot produce immortality.
  2. Standard memberHalitose
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    10 Feb '06 15:11
    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (NKJV)
  3. Unknown Territories
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    11 Feb '06 04:42
    Originally posted by Halitose
    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (NKJV)
    This says nothing of the impartation of soul life.
  4. Standard memberHalitose
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    11 Feb '06 06:31
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    This says nothing of the impartation of soul life.
    It says something about what you can do with your body don't it?
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    11 Feb '06 09:09
    The Life Giver???!!!
  6. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    11 Feb '06 09:25
    Originally posted by Karluk
    The Life Giver???!!!
    Yep, the flying spaghetti monster - that's the one!
  7. Unknown Territories
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    11 Feb '06 16:11
    Originally posted by Halitose
    It says something about what you can do with your body don't it?
    Let's not put too much emphasis on the sanctity of the physical, as it is temporary; nor on the passage, as it does not apply to how soul (human) life is imparted.
  8. Standard memberHalitose
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    11 Feb '06 19:41
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Let's not put too much emphasis on the sanctity of the physical, as it is temporary; nor on the passage, as it does not apply to how soul (human) life is imparted.
    Very well. I don't have time to debate this from a theological perspective, I just happened to notice the above verses and thought they might be applicable; seems like I was wrong.

    I think the biggest argument against your case is that you are contradicting both Jewish and Christian tradition, which has been predominantly pro-life, i.e. anti-abortion. If it was so obvious, then how come they missed it - the absence of good medical technology to make it a safe procedure?
  9. Unknown Territories
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    11 Feb '06 22:01
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Very well. I don't have time to debate this from a theological perspective, I just happened to notice the above verses and thought they might be applicable; seems like I was wrong.

    I think the biggest argument against your case is that you are contradicting both Jewish and Christian tradition, which has been predominantly pro-life, i.e. anti-abortion. I ...[text shortened]... n how come they missed it - the absence of good medical technology to make it a safe procedure?
    If, as you say, there is a Judeo-Christian tradition on the subject, said tradition is so achingly new as to place severe strain on the meaning of the term. Historically speaking (not that this either confirms, denies or replaces doctrine), the anti- stance is new.
    Human gestational periods have long been known. Had there existed a fixation or emphasis on the sanctity of life origins in the past, one would have difficulty in proving any other spotlight than the one on the 'birth' day of the same.
    Additionally, crediting man with creating immortality is sheer arrogance, speaking nothing of the implications of two (or more) sin natures in side of a pregnant woman.
  10. Hmmm . . .
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    12 Feb '06 18:432 edits
    Yeoman’s work, Freaky! I copied the whole thing into word, so I could sit and read it through whole—it came to 12 pages of 12-point type!

    Nemesio unfortunately is on a bit of a break from the forums right now. Hopefully, he will catch up with this later, since he was very interested in it.

    I’ll undoubtedly have some comments after I’ve read through the whole thing. For the moment here are some sites that outline the “Jewish view” on abortion—which, of course is views, which cover the lot generally. The Orthodox are the most “conservative,” then the Conservatives, then the Reform and Reconstructionist. Only (some) Orthodox, for example, are in favor of overturning Roe-v-Wade; the rest, as groups, are opposed.

    Judaism generally takes a “developmental” approach (which I think you referenced above), as the fetus progresses toward full humanity (or personhood). The further along, the more restrictive the halachik opinion will be. All the Jewish groups rely on both written and oral Torah (Talmud).

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/abortion.html

    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3afc768e268f.htm

    http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html (This is probably the most comprehensive treatment of the lot.)
  11. Unknown Territories
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    13 Feb '06 02:19
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Yeoman’s work, Freaky! I copied the whole thing into word, so I could sit and read it through whole—it came to 12 pages of 12-point type!

    Nemesio unfortunately is on a bit of a break from the forums right now. Hopefully, he will catch up with this later, since he was very interested in it.

    I’ll undoubtedly have some comments after I’ve read through t ...[text shortened]... on/background/judaism1.html
    (This is probably the most comprehensive treatment of the lot.)[/b]
    Thanks for the references. There was a great deal of paraphrasing from the book cited, but I think I was pretty true to the intent.
    Someone tried to nail me down to making a decision about the various lines of demarcation; my response is still the same: I'm glad the decision is not mine to make. I don't want to be the one standing before God with the responsibililty, no matter how clearly I 'see' the biblical perspective.
    One of those 'err on the side of caution' for me, regardless of what the Bible clearly teaches. However, the underlying issue in the Bible is, truly, who gives life--- man, or God?
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Feb '06 15:511 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Thanks for the references. There was a great deal of paraphrasing from the book cited, but I think I was pretty true to the intent.
    Someone tried to nail me down to making a decision about the various lines of demarcation; my response is still the same: I'm glad the decision is not mine to make. I don't want to be the one standing before God with the re hes. However, the underlying issue in the Bible is, truly, who gives life--- man, or God?
    I read through the whole thing and made some notes, but I am short on time today. I just wanted to mentione--on a note of shared interest--that, had I paid more attention before to your study of the Hebrew word min, I could have done a better job with my midrash! 😳
  13. Unknown Territories
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    01 Jan '07 16:16
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    This thread is an attempt to inform on the biblical perspective of when life begins, humanly speaking.
    I am not an expert on theology, biology, Hebrew, Chaldean or Greek. I would not even rate my understanding of the level of student, yet. More student-wannabe, for the time being.
    Nonetheless, it is profitable for the believer to study theology and the ...[text shortened]... n to the woman. These four verbs designate two of the three categories of life.
    For the sake of Acemaster. Sheesh. The things we do for love.
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